Iraq War Illegal?

[johnc]

Man. You're paranoid.

 

Let's not get personal. Calling someone a dimwit, paranoid, etc. really isn't appropriate and the mods on this site have relaxed their zero tolerance policy lately because the members have been behaving themselves. That may change real soon...

 

[Guest Phil1934]

No, I'm not paranoid. I don't think the poiticians are out to get me as much as they are out to get themselves rich. I think the public has a right to know when they have business dealings that compromise their objectivity. Did you know Chuck Hagel, Sen-R-NE is partial owner of the company that made the voting machine you used? Does that mean anything? I don't know, but how would you like to be involved in a trial and find out later the other party is related to the judge? Would it change the outcome? I don't know. Do you have a right to know these things when they affect your life directly? Yes.

[Pop N Wood]

a solar cell coupled to an electrolysis machine coupled to a hydrogen tank. FREE energy (excluding the initial purchase)

 

But once you include the price of the initial purchase your FREE energy is much more expensive than oil. Can't ignore the reality of that.

 

A lot of us grew up in the 70's. Alternate energy sources were all the rage. Then the price of oil stagnated in inflation corrected dollars and suddenly the alternate energy sources were no longer cost effective.

 

I think eventually the world will turn to hydrogen as an energy storage medium. But there are some very real technological questions that need to be answered first (that stuff is dangerous, ever hear of the Hindenburg?). And none of it will happen on any scale until gas becomes much more expensive.

 

Also I wish John had not posted that article on war for oil. It is not the way I think.

[johnc]

Also I wish John had not posted that article on war for oil. It is not the way I think.

 

But, hopefully, its gets a few people to think.

 

oh, come on, i wasn't going to say anything up until now, but that post about oil being something to fight for made me want to puke. You can't be serious. There are HUNDREDS of alternative sources of energy.

 

Oil is it until those alternative sources of energy power our local hospitals, schools, churchs, cars, home heating, and generate electricity. Dreams and good intentions don't feed, cloth, warm, or protect us. I'm all for developing alternative energy sources, but until they become commercial realities I think its smart and prudent for us to fight for oil.

[Dan Baldwin]

Lotsa ways we could reduce dependency, but we certainly haven't gotten any "leadership" in that direction. Any Iraqi oil we get now will have to have the added costs of the war (dollars and HUMAN LIVES) factored in. Were we really that desperate for it? I hardly think so. Lotsa reasons in W's, Cheney's, Rumsfeild's, Wolfowitz', etc. pea-brains for the war, I'm sure. Mainly, they WANTED to, and weren't about to let the facts that there were no justifiable reasons or that they had no practical realistic plan stop them. Dumb idea, incredibly bad timing, poorly planned. They simply dismissed any rational explanations as to why it wasn't going to be NEARLY as easy as they presented it to be and committed us to it anyway. They're either morons or they're (I would hope unwitting) servants of evil. I suspect some combination of the two.

 

Welcome to "The Endarkenment".

[Guest Phil1934]

You mean Bush lied when he said it was about bringing democracy to the Iraqi people? It does seem the pretense is off. News now says 10,000 American troops and some Iraqi troops (less their officer who just deserted with full knowledge of the invasion plans) are ready to invade Fallujah. What happened to the Coalition? Their holy men are asking all Iraqi citizens to rise up if we invade Fallujah. I guess this is why this started right after the election. The cost of that oil is going to rise dramatically. Doesn't affect you? One day after the election the Federal Register noted the Selective Service requested the names of all students receiving Federal aid so they could match it to their list to be sure they all registered when they turned 18. I wonder why. Bush also said there would be no draft. But that was before he got his mandate.

[Guest bastaad525]

Well... chicken little or whatever you want to call it. Maybe the sky is falling. I saw a poll the other day... I wish I could find it again, where they polled everyone after Bush won and asked how they felt after he did. Something like 25% were happy and hopefull, 30% were angry, and 30%+ were afraid... yes AFRAID of what might happen over the next four years, scared for their lives.

 

 

Like I said, I take it with a grain of salt... I find it very interesting, and I think it's possible, but I wont be running off to join any compounds any time soon. I just felt it was worth passing it around for other people to read. It was new info for me, maybe others out there would like to have that info to consider for themselves.

 

 

But, whether for religion, or oil, or WHATEVER, I DO, very strongly, believe that Bush's administration may very likely lead us into World War III, or something very much larger than what's going on now in Iraq. It's no conspiracy theory that he has succeeded in 'stepping on the toes' of such a large portion of the rest of the world, and looks like he is continuing to do so. I'm very eager and anxious to see how he will further handle the situation in regards to muslims, how he will handle N. Korea, and eventually, China, for starters. No matter how you slice it, for me, the next four years are going to be a time for worrying. You can call ME paranoid all you want. And you can tell me I'm just flat out wrong... trust me I really hope I AM wrong.

[crazy280]

pop'n'wood,

Actually the price of the initial purchase is WWWWAAAAAAAYYYY compensated for by the FREE fuel you get for years and years. It works out to be the equivelant of paying a few cents per gallon. Not only that, but it is 94% cleaner when burned and can be enjoyed by hotrodders (BMW had a hydrogen-combustion show car 540i that was claimed to have a 30% increase in power output over gasoline, how's that sound hotrodders?)

 

JohnC,

Listen, if people knew more about the alternative energy field, they would know that it IS entirely possible to switch over to alternative sources (especially hydrogen), we just lack the infrastructure because investors are either too scared by false information, or are currently profiting off their asses from the oil system, so why should they switch?

And guess who is fighting every step of the way? Yup. "Big Oil" (as the eco-nuts call them). Forget any sh!t you may have heard about hydrogen cars not being a reality- it can happen NOW, and fuel-cell powered cars are not as far away as they'd have you believe. Like I said, we could all be refuelling our own vehicles RIGHT NOW nearly for free. Gee, who would want to stop this from happenning? I wonder

Money is a huge corruptor. And energy companies make plenty of it. I almost crapped my pants when I saw a commercial about supposed "clean coal" !!!! That is like saying "perfume feces" . Read up on "clean coal" and you'll know what I mean, it was just propaganda from the coal companies. This is what is known in the energy business as "greening": where you create the IMAGE of eco-friendliness when you really aren't eco-friendly.

The system of hydrogen production that I spoke of earlier can be applied to almost any other energy scenarios. Hardly anyone is aware of this because much of the quote "research" being done is funded by the oil companies and the automakers, who then skew the information to fit their needs. In Japan, they are much farther along than us when it comes to this because they have far more independant sources of info, as well as government funded research and development.

BTW, here in California, a lot of electricity comes from wind power. Hey, its a start, right? And please don't insult me with this "dreams and good intentions don't feed, cloth, warm or protect us" stuff. I could say the same thing about the Iraq war..."dreams and good intentions" ...don't find WMD's, ...don't make a stable and peaceful government, ...don't bring back to life over 1000 dead U.S. soldiers, etc., etc., etc., but it wouldn't prove anything, so lets be considerate, ok?

Sorry to rant like that but I wanted to inform people of the truth about alternative energy, as it is very interesting to me and has been for years.

[Pop N Wood]

pop'n'wood' date='

Actually the price of the initial purchase is WWWWAAAAAAAYYYY compensated for by the FREE fuel you get for years and years. It works out to be the equivelant of paying a few cents per gallon. Not only that, but it is 94% cleaner when burned and can be enjoyed by hotrodders (BMW had a hydrogen-combustion show car 540i that was claimed to have a 30% increase in power output over gasoline, how's that sound hotrodders?)[/quote']

 

Unfortunately, no it isn’t. There is no such thing as free fuel. Look at the cost per kilowatt hour of the wind power being generated in California. Those wind turbines have a very high initial price. Even running them after they are built isn’t cheap when you account for the maintenance costs. If it wasn’t for the government subsidies they all would be operating at a loss.

 

Hydrogen research for automobiles hit a peak a few years ago. Car companies and governments were experimenting with sintered iron tanks for safely holding the hydrogen. The iron acted like a sponge to hold the gas without excessive pressure. That approach is being phased out in favor of fuel cells. Fuel cells have been used on spacecraft for years, but the technology is still too expensive to be cost effective. They need another 10 or 20 years. Maybe less.

 

The problem with hydrogen has nothing to do with oil companies. Electrolysis of water is well known. The problem is where do you get the energy to disassociate the hydrogen and oxygen? Solar energy requires some type of solar cell. This is no different than a modern day solar panel hooked up to a car battery. The hydrogen just takes the place of the battery as a storage medium. These devices cost more to run and maintain than the price BGE charges me for electricity. I don’t have time to look up the numbers right now, but believe me if, it was cost effective I would have such a set up in my garage right now.

 

You also need to look at the amount of energy consumed by the world every day. Sacramento Municipal Utility District (SMUD) has the largest solar energy system in the world. It use 10 acres of panels to out put all of six megawatts. Compare that the average nuke plant that kicks out around 1000 megawatts. Do you really think we can afford to replace each and every nuke plant with 1500 acres of solar panels? Actually you may need to double that since solar energy doesn’t work too well at night.

 

Hardly anyone is aware of this ….

 

I am well aware of all this, as are hundreds of technical investors. Look up detailed numbers.

[crazy280]

Pop'n'wood,

True, I was exagerating about it being free, but I made it clear that it would cost cents on the gallon. Depending on your average yearly mileage, the MPG of your vehicles, and how nice of equipment you purchase, it would end up being the equivalent of paying between 15 and 53 cents per gallon of gasoline. The worst case of 53 cents is if you average 15,000 miles a year, and if your car gets 20 mpg, over a 20 year period it would have cost you 53 cents a gallon if you had used gasoline. Ironically, the more you drive and the worse your mpg is, the more you end up saving with hydrogen, versus gasoline!

All of the info is out there, anyone can find it. In fact, I easily found the equipment on the internet at a laboratory equipment store website. The pricey stuff gets you faster hydrogen production rates, and more lbs of storage than the cheaper stuff, but it is all available. BTW, the technique of storing the hydrogen in iron is still being pursued, only they are using more exotic materials. The materials are referred to as hydrides.

Also, I'm not suggesting we use any kind of large scale solar energy production, or wind power for that matter. I don't know why you got off on that tangent, I never tried to defend the cost of wind power, etc. In fact, I agree with the points you made. Plus, I said I was not promoting fuel cells, as they are not currently affordably feasable due to the use of platinum, etc in the cell. Like I said, I am talking about hydrogen cumbustion. In fact, a few auto companies have produced running, complete, hydrogen burning cars, only they aren't for sale. Mazda has shown off an RX-8 powered by hydrogen cumbustion, as well as BMW with that 540i, and others, I'm sure.

So getting back to the point, I was not suggesting the use of hydrogen as a replacement for electricity. I was just responding to the post about OIL. We can easily replace any system of energy that currently uses oil, with hydrogen. That "setup in my garage" would be to refuel my CAR. Get it? As for the supposed "hydrogen economy" that we all keep hearing about, well, that would take a while.

Like I said, the infrastructure is all that's lacking. If investors go to get consultation, the advisors look at the current research and say it would be too costly, so why not go another route. But they need to see the big picture. The auto and energy companies put so much money into R&D, "greening" advertising, and lobbying, that if that money were just put into building the infrastructure, we could all be reaping the benefits of cleaner energy that also makes us non-dependant on foreign oil. And if we all started buying electrolysis equipment right now to power our own vehicles, the costs would start to come down on the equipment, and it would make businesses see that there is a market for this kind of thing, which would lead to exponential growth in the field. Its just like any other business, remember ten years ago when DVD players cost hundreds of dollars? Pretty soon you'll be hard pressed to find a VHS. And I have seen the "detailed numbers".

Sorry if I came off as being rude, its hard to express tone or implication on a text forum. I'm just trying to share ideas

[Pop N Wood]

Maybe I am coming off as arrogant. Sorry. When I go back and reread some of my posts they tend to read that way.

 

As for the hydrogen, if you can make a car run an LP gas, then it can run on hydrogen. Just have to get over the safety issues and where to find a gas station..

 

But I still remain skeptical about the cost advantages. Looks like you have put a lot more detailed thought into it than I so I won’t dispute your numbers. I still don’t see how hydrogen can reduce our dependence on oil since the hydrogen is only a storage medium. It still takes some type of power source to generate. If the power source is solar, then you aren’t there yet since solar power is still not cost competitive with oil. I brought up the wind power costs just to illustrate what seems like “free†power in reality isn’t.

[Guest 2slo4u]

Well at least it's good to see there are others out there besides me that wonder about alternative energy/fuels. Maybe one day (sooner or later) it will be cost effective.

[260ZRED]

our Polsci teacher said a phrase today about Iraq that got me thinking. He said "Democracies tend not to fight one another."

 

Looking back through history I can't come up with a counterexample. That MAY be one of many worthwile reasons for the invasion (and rebuilding) of Iraq. If all the middle east countries were Democracies, we'd actually have a possible Israeli-Palestinian peace, or at least a better chance of it. That would surely piss off all the "brave terrorists" LOL! and those "clerics" who preach death to american infidels.

 

Is Iraq war "illegal?" History is/was/will always be MADE, WRITTEN, and REMEMBERED as told by the victors. Was Hitler's invasion of Poland illegal? Of course it was, to the Polish, (but not to the Germans.) But, if Hitler wouldn't have been stopped - if he succeeded in conquering Europe, the invasion of Poland would be remembered now along the lines of "oh look how well our army did back in 1939" [think Persian Gulf War, weren't we proud of our low low cassualties and how efficiently our enemy was killed?]

 

just something to consider...

[Michael]

To attempt to answer Socket_Toomee’s question, about whether Americans feel abused by Bush’s lying….

 

My impression is that as an aggregate, Americans do not feel abused. Most Americans probably feel that even if the occupation is going badly, and the “mission accomplished†speech was premature, and the war itself was started too casually, and the Bush administration dismissed world opinion too peremptorily, that nevertheless the invasion of Iraq WAS justified at least in principle. That is, even among critics of the war, the majority would say that some sort of war with Iraq, at one point or another, would have been inevitable. Well, the corollary to that thought is that the lack evidence for WMD’s or of direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda are essentially technicalities. So, if Bush fibbed the technicalities, so what, in the long run it’s excusable.

 

My own personal opinion is quite different, but the final conclusion is actually the same. I do in fact believe that Bush and/or his advisors lied to the world and to the American people. Or, to be more precise, either they were breathtakingly ignorant and complacent, or they lied; take your pick. However, I fully expect politicians to lie, to lie grossly and egregiously, to lie ruthlessly and cynically. So, in that regard, I do not feel abused. It’s just more of the same.

 

In George Orwell’s book, “Animal Farmâ€, I identify 110% with the character Benjamin.