water/methanol injection

[Dnaught14]

If youre going with water or alcohol, in my oppinion you are entering an eventual engine melt down. If you driv eyour car on a regular basis thats too much time for something to go wrong with the managment system or hoses or any part of the complexity that is that system. And if it does fail, then you'll be running so much boost your gonna blow everything apart. But,,Thats assuming something goes wrong. Im too big of a panzy to ever do it, but if you want lotsa boost and big numbers, it is an effective way to do it. Im not knocking water or alcohol, im just to scared to ever break it and the car. But rock on for being ballsy.

[Scottie-GNZ]

If youre going with water or alcohol, in my oppinion you are entering an eventual engine melt down.

Based on what?

 

And if it does fail, then you'll be running so much boost your gonna blow everything apart.

Been running "so much boost" for over 5 years, At least 100 10-sec passes on the same engine with the stock bottom-end.

 

Im too big of a panzy to ever do it......Im not knocking water or alcohol, im just to scared to ever break it and the car. But rock on for being ballsy.

That says it all :D But seriously, there is a difference being being scared of something different and being dligent and smart about tuning.

[spork]

So Scottie, can you get me a good price on the kit since you know the guy???

 

[Dnaught14]

Not trying to start a war, no need to be hostile. All i was trying to say is that I dont like doing constant tuning and checks on my parts. Granted if the car is simply for runs on a track than I fully understand becuase even at 100 runs of 12 seconds thats only 2 minutes or driving time. So i understand that i may be a bit of a pussy, and maybe if all i used a car for was racing it, then it wouldnt be a problem, alas that is not my situation. Equally, i suppose that if all i used a car for was racing,,, than tuning it, pushing it, blowing it up, and starting all over again on a regular basis would make perfect sence so I wouldnt challeng you at all. I didnt mean to challenge water, it just that things do break, i wouldnt want it to happen on the road. But more power to ya, as scottie put me in my place, i am a pussy, and i think thats cool.

[Scottie-GNZ]

Hostile? I guess you missed the smiley (2, in fact) and the "But seriously...".

 

 

Spork,

 

what I can do is work with him to design a kit for the turbo Zs and with turbo Zers to organize a group buy. When I say design a kit I mean the right tank, the right location for the tank and pump and custom hoses to fit that setup. No rubber hoses and clamps here. Only the best quality methanol-tolerant steel-braided hoses with AN fittings. The hard part of course (like designing most custom pieces) is having a car to take the correct measurements and trial fit.

[Guest 81na ZX]

it just that things do break, i wouldnt want it to happen on the road.

 

Water/methanol injection is no more complex, infact its less complex than a fuel injection system. Just think of all the things that can go wrong in fuel injection - there a pump, filter, FPR, bunch of injectors, computers, sensors... If any of thoes fail you can go from limping (sensor failure) to a hydrolocked engine and mechanical damage (hypotheical injector failue).

 

With water injection you have a pump and boost switch on the simple setups. Thats it.

[Dnaught14]

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13

 

check the forum for other peoples input too. Again i understand water/alcohol is a benificial and wonderful way to cool intake temprature effectivly increasing boost potential, but this link is a perfect example. I dont like having to take stuff out, check it, clean it, buy additonal monotoring devices, worrying about hose failures becuase alcohol eats at the pump and hoses, etc... The point is, the concept is simple, but traditionally effective systems require far more than what you listed above. Just read around on this forum, all these people talk about having to be regularly involved in maintaing thier systems. Which is good, it would definetly force you to have a perfectly running ahine al the time, I just dont have that much time, and I was simply bringing that information to light.

[Doug71zt]

Scottie - I'm interested in a kit that would cover the big bits ('noid, mist nozzle, pump, controller). I'll take care of the install-related bits myself. I would be in for at least a couple kits, possibly 4 if anyone else was interested in it at this level. I'll do some more research on the buick forums when I get a minute.

 

Thanks

 

Doug

[Scottie-GNZ]

Dnaught14,

 

I understand some of what you are saying and look at this "problem" with alky/water injection same as I do with NOS. A lot of the bad rep from these systems come from folks who repeat hearsay without firsthand knowledge and from people who simply use the system in the wrong way and the DIYers who do not get it right. Alky (w/o a lubricant) can be damaging to the pump and hoses if you use a pump that requires lubrication and you use hoses that are not alky-tolerant. Alky can be damaging to the engine (like NOS) if the proportions are incorrect, the system does not allow adjustments, you simply miss the limitations AND you unknowingly run out of alky at full boost (ironically, a common occurence).

 

Now, I hate to sound like a salesman, but my buddy probably has the most well-thoughtout system on the market. The pump he uses does not require lubrication so it cannot be damaged by alky. While you can buy your own hoses, his kit only comes with high-quality, alky-tolerant braided hoses. The kit also includes a low-level sender so only the stoooopid who ignores the ultra-bright LED warning light will run out at the wrong time. The key component of his system is the progressive controller that in a nutshell, allows you to tune when the pump kicks in and to ramp the pump pressure as boost increases. So, if you need lots of alky at 20psi, you do not get the same amount when the pump kicks in at 5psi. Despite all this, not much can be done for those who simply do not take the time to monitor and tune accurately and that goes for any high-performance setup.

 

 

Doug,

 

I will be with him tomorrow doing some fine tuning on my car and will have some discussions with him.

[Bernardd]

I bought myself the pump, hose and progressive controller for under 200.00 canadian. I need to pick up a couple of nozzles then I'll install it. I used the parts list off of a DIY kit and a controller is easy to find in kit form for 50.00 or less. Mine was 36.00 can. My tranny is really going to hate me now.

[Scottie-GNZ]

With no changes to the default settings, now have the boost up to 26.5psi with no knock/spark retard and the EGT is only reading 1500*. Another couple psi boost? Scary! We will see how this translate to HP on the track soon.

[Dnaught14]

Scottie,

 

Thanks for enlighting me on the quality of the system. It seems like you are quite on the ball with everything. Sorry if I came accross as flagrant, i simply wanted to put on the table the potential risks i had found when doing research. Lemme know what kind of numbers your putting down with all that boost.

[Tony D]

Water Injection has been around for years.

"In the beginning, God Created Spearco, and they invented the single pressure switch water injection controller, and it was good.

On down the line, Spearco came out with a dual switched water injection controller, ad it was good...."

 

Now there is so much technology available to really truly CONTROL the water going in, it's almost like another system component on the EFI!

 

I started with a single switch Spearco unit on my 69 Corvair Corsa (Turbo) running 17# of boost in 1979. In the late 80's when Turbine technology advanced, 22psi was pumping out, so I got the dual switched unit. I don't know how many tens of thousands of miles I drove on the car, with nary a problem. No intercooler, and a retapered needle residing in a 2" SU providing fueling. If water injection can keep a 60's vintage AIR COOLED engine from melting down, it should work even better with today's technology on an engine with 10+ more years of engineering development, and having water cooling!

 

Sometimes you ahve to tweak stuff to get more power, all other things being held equal (like pump gas octane)...

[Doug71zt]

Hey Scottie - Any new news on the possibility of a Z-kit?

 

Doug

[Scottie-GNZ]

Been almost 4 months and so I thought there was no further interest. As for a Z-specific kit, what would make it so would depend on what type of resorvoir is used, where the reservoir and pump are located and the hoses based on that. Everything else is the same for another engine. Why do'nt you figure out where the resorvoir and pump might be located and let me know and we can figure out what the rest might look like. He does not have a Z to figure that out so that would help. Keep in mind that the pump inlet needs to be at least on a level with the resorvoir outlet and have no concerns about the pump before exposed to the elements.

 

I will be away from the confuser for about a week starting tomorrow night so I will not be responding to any posts or emails.

 

BTW, he recently went 10.90 @ 126.5 in a 3650# TTA. I will save you the math and tell you that is about 565rwhp on 93-octane and a stock shortblock and MT DRs.

[mario_82_ZXT]

Since this thread might have been resurrected, I have a few questions to ask:

 

1. I heard that water corrodes efi L series intake manifolds

2. You run the sprayer before the turbo right? Doesn't that waste away the turbine (heard this too)?

3. If you have an intercooler, do you still run the sprayer before the turbo?

 

Just curious,

Mario

[Bernardd]

Since this thread might have been resurrected' date=' I have a few questions to ask:

 

1. I heard that water corrodes efi L series intake manifolds

2. You run the sprayer before the turbo right? Doesn't that waste away the turbine (heard this too)?

3. If you have an intercooler, do you still run the sprayer before the turbo?

 

Just curious,

Mario[/quote']

 

1. Zcar.com myth. With adequate pressure (60+psi) and a good nozzle it's not going to be a problem.

2. You can do it that way. You will erode the compressor blades a bit after a period of time. Better way is to spray after the turbo. This is why you need a good pump to overcome boost pressure.

3. See # 2. Place nozzle after the intercooler before the tb.

I've been able to increase my timing by 8deg's and boost by 4psi with my homemade system. I've been using -40deg ww fluid spiked with meth. I'm going to go with 100% meth next to see what it can do for me.

[Doug71zt]

Keep in mind that the pump inlet needs to be at least on a level with the resorvoir outlet and have no concerns about the pump before exposed to the elements.

 

 

A question about the pump location - does it need to be above or below the reservoir outlet? I may just go this alone, as I already have a 3bar MAP sensor installed, and I may hide the pump, etc in the airdam area, away from the hot bits. Does Razor use a check valve anywhere in his system? What size of nozzle are you using in the RX/GN?

 

Thanks

 

Doug

[Scottie-GNZ]

Pictures are worth 1000 words, so here are some pics of my install.

 

Key for the installation of the pump is that the pump inlet must be at least level with the reservoir outlet or lower. Note that my pump is upside down and the reservoir and pump are installed behind the PS headlight mechanism, somewhat exposed to the elements.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/alkyinj1.jpg

 

The pump outlet feeds into the filter which then feeds into the injector nozzle as close to the TB as possible. I am using a single M15 injector and so far seems to be fine. All lines are teflon-lined, steel-braided lines. The reservoir to pump line is -6 and the rest is -4. You will also see a plastic bottle in front of the radiator that I use to fill up the system. That bottle is 24oz and the reservoir is 64oz. That works for me as I am not concerned about consumption in everyday driving. At the track I used about 12-15oz/pass.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/alkyinj2.jpg

 

Here is the progressive controller box and power supply. On the back side of the box are 2 adjustment knobs - the "turn-on" point of the pump and the ramp speed control for the pump (increases pump voltage as boost increases). Not had to adjust those from factory deafults. This is installed behind the PS footrest just above the ECM, currently removed.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/alkyinj3.jpg

 

Next you see the box that has the On/Off swith, a button to test the system and allow additional fine-tuning on the fly.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/alkyinj4.jpg

 

Last pic shows my boost gauge and EGT pod with 2 red LEDs. One LED lights up at the turn-on point and the other is the low-level sensor light triggered by a float that you install in the reservoir.

 

http://www.turbobuicks.com/members/scottiegnz/alkyinj5.jpg

 

I know folks can do DIYs for substantially less but with 25-26psi boost, a target of 560+rwhp and knowing how critical the fuel mixture is to quick spooling of the turbo and the 1st 60'-100', I want that infinite adjustability.

 

 

Based on the kinds of questions and bad assumptions I see, this might be useful information. If you can see pass some vendor-specific sales pitches, there is some really good information here.

 

http://home.att.net/~alkycontrol/page8.htm

[AnTmanS130T]

I know of a few local guys running the alky control systems. I live in Tampa and hear nothing but good about these kits. I was looking into the kits a while ago, undecided.. if I had the money I would go with the alky control kit but for now I think I will just make my own kit. Any tips or recommendations for any specific DIY kits or the best way to do things?