Z-Dreamer Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If G-Force is selling them then there must be some market? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ww Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If G-Force is selling them then there must be some market? Mark True. But it's not the only thing they sell and they've been in this business for over 14 years. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see this happen. I would buy one if someone were to make a good competative product to comparable specifications at or below the G-Force price and had some possibility of being around to support the product for the forseeable future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 What's really sad is that Bubba at G-Force has turned off at least two people personally over the phone from HybridZ. And apparently he turned Paul at 5speeds.com away too. We could just eat crow and order the boxes from Bubba, but I'm working on another route. I'll give you some insight on how it goes hopefully soon. I don't NEED a G-Force T-5, but I'm willing to add one more unit to the count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ww Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Hey Pete. My problem is I need a T5 with Datsun/Nissan input and output shafts to go behind my L6... I was considering this because it got me the strength I wanted with the result being a truly bolt-in solution. If this can be accomplished with your alternative, count me in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If the gear set is all that is needed to be changed, I don't see what that can't be worked into the deal. The upgraded input shaft will be custom though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimZ Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 If the gear set is all that is needed to be changed, I don't see what that can't be worked into the deal. The upgraded input shaft will be custom though. For the Datsun T5, the output shaft is also way smaller than the upgraded gearset's - to the point that the tailshaft housing has to be welded up and re-bored. You'll need a new driveshaft yoke. Mike: Talk to Kevin at: The Gear Box 26405 Northline Rd Taylor, MI 48180 (734) 946-6088 He upgraded my Datsun T5 with what I'm 99.9% certain was the same gearset that Gforce was using - he was getting them straight from the manfacturer of the gearset (it didn't sound like he was dealing with gForce directly). Anyway, I've been happy with mine so far, and he recently did one for Rick Bowers and shipped it to Florida, so your being out of town should not be a problem. Also - I'll vouch that he's honest, easy to work with and does good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 I just got off the phone with Bruce at modern drivelines. He is very easy to talk to and comes across as an engineer who likes to build custom conversions using T-5s etc. He does alot of stuff for the Mustang crowd, kit cobras (superperformance for one), and even does transmissions for Carrol Shelby's shop. He makes complete conversion kits for older mustangs, including flywheel, clutch, PP, clutch actuation, driveshaft, etc. He's done a Datsun T-5 conversion before, using a custom input shaft, modified tail housing, shaft, etc. and can do this for you, WW. He does suggest using a 26 spline clutch disk to get away from the custom input shaft. He's interested in doing a chunk of T-5s that would be all the same (more likely this would be for the SBC set here). His issue is that he works with a dealer that buys the gearsets from a G-force vendor (not G-force themselves) and basically gets little to no break on the pricing due to this. He does it this way to not have to deal with G-Force directly (I guess we know why!) The issue is that he needs a decent number (5 to 10 in his words) of orders for G-force T-5s to be able to buy enough gear sets at once to make it worth while. Bruce uses the Ford carbon fiber syncros, ford tail shaft bushing (longer, gives better lubrication and stability), Timkin bearings, his own custom lower cluster bearing support, etc. Basically, he makes his own "rebuild kit" since he doesn't like some of the lower quality stuff you find in the typical rebuild kits. He also does custom setup as far as getting the clearances so that the box will have no slop after use, no just in the initial setup of the box on the bench. He has F-Body WC cases if you need a complete trans from him without a core. So for those that would be interested in a GM WC T-5 trans with the G-Force gearset, he's interested in doing a run. After talking with him, I'd have no problem sending him money to build a T-5. Options like the G-force input shaft are also available obviously. I see Mikelly, Z-Dreamer, me as interested. (Yes, I'm going to sell my Tremec and get a T-5.) Are there any others interested? I have no idea what the exact price would be. But I believe it would get better if we had 3 or more people involved. He said figure on about $1100 for the gear set (like on G-forces site) and rebuild ($500 including labor and rebuild parts). That might not be the final total though. Sending a WC to rebuild will save money. Anyway, this is another option if you want a G-force upgraded T-5 and want to deal with someone who knows there stuff and is easy to deal with. I'll probably be sending my broken Camaro WC T-5 to have him G-force it, but I'll wait until we can get enough people to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Even though I'm not presently in the market for such a T5, I will be in the future (not soon enough for this unfortunately). I hope this can be a viable option for a future run if possible. My WC T5 is practically new and I'd hate to spend an additional $1100 at this point. I'm sure eventually it will frag, but until then I'm not quite there. Still, I hope there is a viable opportunity for this in the future... Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Pete, what kind of torque capability are we talking about? John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Ok. So here’s what I’ve got so far… Comparing the ford WC T5 and our NWC T5- Length from the front of the main case to the tip of the input shaft: WC-T5 = 7 1/8" NWC-T5 = 7 1/4" Bell depth: WC-T5 = 7" NWC-T5 = 6 1/2" So, with our bell bolted to the WC-T5, the input shaft would stick out approx 3/8" more. Not a big deal if the end of the L28 crank has the room to accept the added 3/8". If not, this wouldn't be a hard fix by either using a spacer between the bell and L28 or getting the front of the input shaft wacked by the exact amount needed. A pilot bearing needs to be found that would be plug-n-play or, one could be pretty easily made. A clutch would have to be made with a 225-240mm disk attached to a hub that would accept the ford input spline. Someone here just had something similar done from Clutch Specialties and it was no problem so i'm thinking this wouldn't be an issue. I don’t know diameter of the ford bearing retainer that the throwout collar rides on but, if it's the same as the Nissan T5, all set. If it's a different diameter, we'd need to purchase the ford T.O. bearing retainer and bearing ,or just go hydraulic. For the output side, you will need to get a driveshaft made to mate the Ford yoke to the Datsun rear. Here's the catch, measuring from the face of the main case to the center of the shifter location: Nissan - 21 3/4" Ford - 18 3/4" Jon, I've seen that done on other hybrids (mazda/T5) but didn't know if it affected shifting in any way? How does your setup shift, just as if the extension wasn't there? I've got the Pro 5.0 sitting in the garage, never installed, i'm wondering if this would be and easy route since the Pro stick is 2 piece unit anyway. Would just need to make a horizontal 3" extension to get the stick to land in the right position. And if you didn't have and aftermarket stick, the route you went doesn't sound too difficult for the average guy to do or get done. Please take for granted, all the dimensions i wrote on the ford WC-T5 was from others that measured it for me, since i don’t have one on hand. If they’re slightly off, don’t shoot me I called G-Force on Thursday and spoke w/Mark. Much better conversation than i had w/Bubba. They build their tranny with their gearset (or whomever actually makes it), a ford 10 spline input shaft and a chevy 26 spline output shaft. Now i've never seen a G-Force trans made for one of our Z's but i was thinking they use the chevy part to fit through our tailshaft housing without having to do a build up and boring out like Tim's guy did. Not sure on this one. I think this is all the info I have right now. I know it doesn’t amount to much but maybe it’ll spark some other thoughts/ideas on what to do. BTW - what does PMOI stand for? Not up on my acronym lingo i guess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Pete' date=' what kind of torque capability are we talking about? John[/quote'] Here's a quote from their web site: http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp "Although we do not like to put torque or horsepower ratings on our products due to the vast differences in clutch, engine, chassis, tire, and mounting combinations, we can give a very rough estimate. There are simply too many variables to consider when trying to figure out how much power or torque a transmission will take in a particular application. Generally, it can be assumed that with the available upgraded mainshaft, the G-Force T-5 kit will handle roughly 600 hp or 500 ft-lb. or torque in a 3300 lb. vehicle running drag radials at the track with a moderate clutch upgrade. Obviously this is just a rough estimate regarding the power and torque handling capability, but it should give some idea as to what the G-Force T-5 kit will handle in your particular application." So, I'd think for a lighter Z, with drag radials, we'd have the same or actually more capability. Bruce mentioned that the G-force unit has been very successful for drag racers. He says guys are getting 100+ runs in mustangs with slicks without failure. He also mentioned that if someone wants a stronger gear set, he has sent them out to be annealed to give them more resistance to failure under heavy loads, although the wear properties are reduced. Some drag racers have asked for this trade off. Another thing he mentioned (and this adds to my opinion of him knowing what he's talking about) is that it's really a function of the shock one puts into the trans. He said if you put a metallic clutch and/or one without the hub springs in front of the trans, in a heavy car, and launch at 5000rpm, obviously the trans will break sooner. He works with superior clutch to design and market clutch kits for his swap packages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 So' date=' with our bell bolted to the WC-T5, the input shaft would stick out approx 3/8" more. Not a big deal if the end of the L28 crank has the room to accept the added 3/8". If not, this wouldn't be a hard fix by either using a spacer between the bell and L28 or getting the front of the input shaft wacked by the exact amount needed. A clutch would have to be made with a 225-240mm disk attached to a hub that would accept the ford input spline. Someone here just had something similar done from Clutch Specialties and it was no problem so i'm thinking this wouldn't be an issue.[/quote'] Bruce at modern drivelines said that he works with superior clutch to do this kind of thing often. It's a matter of having a disc made with a different hub. As far as making uf for the longer input shaft length, making a spacer is pretty easy. I had to do that to get the Ford short input shaft on my Tremec TR-3550 to work with my muncie style GM bellhousing (1/8" thick). A pilot bearing needs to be found that would be plug-n-play or, one could be pretty easily made. A bushing would be simple. A bearing might be too. The McLeod GM-to-Ford bearing is a simple sealed ball bearing with an aluminum, knurled ring pressed onto the outer race that fits into the larger diameter hole in the back of the GM crank. This fits the typical Ford Toploader input shaft. I called G-Force on Thursday and spoke w/Mark. Much better conversation than i had w/Bubba. They build their tranny with their gearset (or whomever actually makes it), a ford 10 spline input shaft and a chevy 26 spline output shaft. Now i've never seen a G-Force trans made for one of our Z's but i was thinking they use the chevy part to fit through our tailshaft housing without having to do a build up and boring out like Tim's guy did. Not sure on this one. That's promising - that someone at G-Force is able to keep from turning people away. BTW - what does PMOI stand for? Not up on my acronym lingo i guess Polar Moment Of Inertia Here's a laymans definition, from Car and Driver's site: "Polar moment of inertia The resistance of an object to rotational acceleration. When the mass of an object is distributed far from its axis of rotation, the object is said to have a high polar moment of inertia. When the mass distribution is close to the axis of rotation, it has a low polar moment of inertia. A mid-engined car has most of its mass within its wheelbase, contributing to a low polar moment of inertia, which, in turn, improves cornering turn-in." Here's a geeky definition (http://www.synchrolite.com/B264.html): (just to show that the PMOI is a function of the SQUARE of the distance from the axis of rotation (center of gravity in the lateral plane for us). That means that the effect of moving a mass of M from a distance of x to a distance of 2x away from the CG means that the effect that moving that mass has an effect on the total PMOI of the vehicle which is 4 times more than when it was a distance x away from the CG)): "Polar moment of inertia of mass . [JM]sometime denoted byUnits are ft-lbs-sec2 (slug-ft2) or in-lbs-sec2 Appears in dynamics equations involving rotational motion. The resistance to change of a body in circular motion. Also known as Gyroscopic Inertia. JM bears the same relationship to angular acceleration as mass does to linear acceleration. See alsorotational inertia on this page. Value for cylinder:JM = 1/2mr2 ~ r is the radius of the cylinder. Value for hollow cylinder:JM = 1/2m(R2 + r2) ~ R is the outside radius of the cylinder. r is the inside radius. Value for disk with mass(m) considered as being concentrated at the radius ®. JM = m * r" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jersey Posted March 12, 2005 Share Posted March 12, 2005 Pete, you are just a plethora of information Thanks for the definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 13, 2005 Author Share Posted March 13, 2005 I had made the move to sending my bellhousing back and going ith the TKO600... If I can undo this, I'm on board with the T5... But I'd recommend we talk to Tim's source as well ONLY because Gforce is involved with Bruce's sourcing, which is what got Paul C. into trouble in the first place. GForce is supplying all the ASA and Bush teams with stock FIRST. They are focused on sales in large volume to these series and any small numbers get shipped last. Remember, I've been waiting since SEPTEMBER for the second trans. I don't personally want to wait more than 4-6 weeks MAX. Let me know Pete... I'll know if my bellhousing is being swapped out by Express on Monday! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted March 13, 2005 Share Posted March 13, 2005 Pete, that's what I was looking for. I fully understand trans life expectacy is a curve, not a fixed value. I'm in for one. I like the idea of the weight savings. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 19, 2005 Author Share Posted March 19, 2005 Weight on the T5 I got for Jim's car was 83# without the shifter and without any other hardware attached. I don't know what a TKO weighs...That was using a cheap bathroom scale... Who knows how accurate it was... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 My TKO was 115# with Pro 5.0 shifter and fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted March 20, 2005 Share Posted March 20, 2005 The shipping weight of my TR-3550 without oil and with their crappy shifter was 105 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted March 21, 2005 Author Share Posted March 21, 2005 So the difference in weight sounds like the weight of the blowproof bellhousing... Not a bad gain if you ask me and certainly worth it... Now I'm set back even more because A: My truck's intake is leaking coolant and will have to be resolved... and B: the Vette has developed a WHINE in 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th gears... There is a T56 rebuild in my future... However, This tranny purchase is on Jim M. (I assume, since he was buying the other one for me for work I did) so keep me posted so we can get mine ordered as well... Again, only concern I have is with GForce being involved in ANYTHING in this process... This Tranny is the last "big" ticket item. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psykovertible Posted March 24, 2005 Share Posted March 24, 2005 I may be down for one of these. I would need to have a solid number for total cost involved. I need everything. I have no starting point except my muncie 4 spd that I am trying to avoid at this point. T5 all done up G Force style and ready to bolt in and fill is what I need. I want to focus my attention on details and not spend money on the same thing several times before finding something that works. I actually need the bell housing and throwout stuff too. Obviously I would likely rely on you all to finish the combo off and make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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