Gas Milage

[Guest comeandzpa]

What happened to quality engineering such as this?

 

Technology/laziness. That car that was 1800 lbs. 20 years ago is now a 2800 lb. car thanks to modern additions like A/C, power everything, etc. plus people demand more and more power and smoother operation...all things that come at the expense of fuel economy.

 

Getting back to the hybrid/diesel discussion. The way people talk about hybrids kind of cracks me up. As previously mentioned by crazy280, the point of a hybrid vehicle isn't 100+ MPG, its better fuel economy plus PZEV status. As for which is better, that depends on where you live/what type of driving you do. If you do a lot of city driving, or are in an area such as here where diesel fuel is scarce and just as if not more expensive than regular fuel, the hybrid is the better choice. If you drive a lot in the city, hybrids are great. RBT (regenerative braking technology) is a phenomenal thing, and the more city driving you do the better your milage becomes. However, if you're going to be driving on the open roads and highways, diesels would probably be a better choice since they acheive fantastic milage at highway speeds (45-50 MPG).

 

People act like dealers are to blame for the EPA ratings. The Prius is EPA rated at 60 MPG city/51 MPG highway. As we've covered, these aren't the most accurate numbers. In real-world driving, they average more like 45 MPG. And people come in irate that their milage isn't better. My probelm with diesels at this point, other than pollution, is selection. What cars can you get with a diesel right now? VWs, suvs, trucks, and a $50,000 Mercedes. While all of these are great choices, there isn't a very good selection if you actually want the great milage diesel engines offer. In a truck/suv, you're not going to get 45 MPG. The Mercedes is a great vehicle, but in reality few people can drop 50 large for a car. That leaves you with a VW...which is fine if you are short and have an equally short family/group of friends, but lets face it - they aren't the roomiest vehicles ever. A Prius isn't a limo, but it's almost as big as a Camry inside. I'm 6'2 and fit comfortably in both the front and the back. Toyota is planning, over the next decade or so, to turn out a hybrid version of every vehicle we sell. The Highlander (Camry-based SUV) hybrid is coming out in June, and should get an average (granted from the EPA, but Toyota is claiming this to be accurate) of 29 MPG (31 city/27 highway). Not only will it have better economy than the regular Highlander V6, but it will also have more power. The hybrid is expected to put out in the neighborhood of 260-270 horsepower, as compared to the 230 the standard 6 puts out. More power, better milage...it really is a great concept.

 

Sorry if this post seems Toyota-biased...I'm not trying to plug my own product, its just that most of my knowledge is limited to Toyotas since I work for them. The same praise could be said for the Accord, Civic, or Escape hybrids. Hybrids offer better power and milage than their regular gas counterparts. Diesels still have their merits, and companies are still working hard to improve the technology to meet ever stricter regulations. More companies are working to bring diesels here and to get them into the mainstream.

 

*long rant... my bad*

[auxilary]

Once a week for a month I added 1 gallon of gas to the Suzuki's fuel tank...

 

Oh come on, John... that joke's been around the net for a decade

 

For what it's worth, my '99 neon r/t is EPA rated at 29city/41 highway. 2 liter dohc motor, optimistically rated by dodge at 150hp/133tq. Since then I've opted for cold air intake, mopar street header and mopar tuned ecu. (all carb legal)

 

Best I ever got out of that car was going 65 the whole way and netting about 38mpg on a continuous freeway cruise. Coming back from MSA last year with mods mentioned above, and about 93k miles... I got 35-36mpg with average speed of about 80mph... with occasional 4-5 mile runs like this:

 

 

usual mixed driving (60% freeway, 40% city and traffic, regular use of leadfoot syndrome) gets me 30-33mpg

[johnc]

Ford Aerospace Aeronutronic division in Newport Beach, CA circa 1991. And that joke has been around since before Al Gore invented the Internet. I didn't claim to be the originator, I just claim that I did it!

[BrandonsZ]

But they don't freekin sell then in CA!!!! BAS TARDS! and a used one costs a lot like new one! Limited supply = Increased cost.

[Pop N Wood]

The way people talk about hybrids kind of cracks me up. As previously mentioned by crazy280, the point of a hybrid vehicle isn't 100+ MPG, its better fuel economy plus PZEV status.

 

Then why did California and other environmental groups try to block their creation?

 

The environmental people want ZERO emission vehicles. They fought hybrids, but the manufactures persevered and made them anyway because they consider them a good compromise vehicle.

 

The electric part is unnecessary to make a low emissions vehicle. The primary purpose is to make the vehicle more acceptable by giving it better acceleration. And like said above, regenerative braking buys nothing on the open highway. Pull the electric crap off the car and the emissions on the freeway will not go up.

[Guest comeandzpa]

I'm not going to try to pretend like I know what CARB people are thinking...then again, does anybody know?

 

The electric engines in a hybrid will run completely independent of the gas engine up to 42 MPH if you're not accelerating hard. They are also used to boost acceleration and passing, since they make peake torque at 0 RPM. But driving around a parking lot/driveway/small street, the car can run completely on the electric engine alone. That's a large part of what contributes to their milage/emissions ratings is that the gas engine doesn't even run sometimes.

[johnc]

This is the benefit of a hybrid powertrain over a normal gasoline engine. In heavy city use (think New York City, downtown LA), waiting in line at McDonalds, and other low speed environments the hybrid gas engine isn't being used. But, on the highways the hybrid is always "on the engine" so its basically a heavy four cylinder car and its fuel mileage reflects that.

[Pop N Wood]

When I was looking into the hybrids, the web sites warned that the cars absolutely could not be run on the electric motors alone. Would violate the warranty if you even tried. The gas motors are coupled directly to the wheels all the time. The engine is always running and putting power to the wheels.

 

They are conventional gasoline power cars with an electric assist. All of the power to charge the batteries comes from the gas engine and regenerative braking (a small contributor depending how you drive). Thus powering the car with just the electric makes no sense because the gas engine will just have to work that much harder to put the energy back into the batteries. From what I have read, the cars drive around on the gas engine. The electric boost only kicks in if additional acceleration is needed. Maye a little more complicated than that but that is still the jist of it.

 

And the electric boost won't happen if the batteries don't have sufficient charge. So the overall system has to be smart enough to manage the battery charge for when it is really needed. It simply cannot provide energy for a sustained period of time.

 

The part about the environmentalist fighting the hybrids has been in the news for years.

 

In case you hadn't noticed I am not a big fan of the current generation of hybrids. I want a full electric car that uses a gas generator to recharge the batteries, not drive the wheels. That way I could turn off the gas motor 20 miles from home and charge it up with house current at night. Simply cannot do that with anything currently being offered by Honda or Toyota.

[JMortensen]

In case you hadn't noticed I am not a big fan of the current generation of hybrids. I want a full electric car that uses a gas generator to recharge the batteries, not drive the wheels. That way I could turn off the gas motor 20 miles from home and charge it up with house current at night. Simply cannot do that with anything currently being offered by Honda or Toyota.

My friend who runs his diesel on veggie oil is constantly saying the same thing. He envisions a small diesel running on veggie oil powering a generator which fills the batteries which drive an electric motor at every wheel. No transmission, just direct drive at the wheel. Kinda like a train in a way. The diesel powers the batteries, and the motor runs off of the batteries. The two don't need to be run together, and he thinks if he did it right the engine wouldn't even run most of the time. He wants to do this on his 4x4, and the only problem he says is that on the route to most of the trails he runs there is a solid 25 mile long grade, and with big tires and a heavy rig it would have to have a LOT of battery capacity or the engine needed to turn a generator large enough would burn a lot of veggie oil.

[Guest comeandzpa]

When I was looking into the hybrids' date=' the web sites warned that the cars absolutely could not be run on the electric motors alone. Would violate the warranty if you even tried. The gas motors are coupled directly to the wheels all the time. The engine is always running and putting power to the wheels.

 

They are conventional gasoline power cars with an electric assist. All of the power to charge the batteries comes from the gas engine and regenerative braking (a small contributor depending how you drive). Thus powering the car with just the electric makes no sense because the gas engine will just have to work that much harder to put the energy back into the batteries. From what I have read, the cars drive around on the gas engine. The electric boost only kicks in if additional acceleration is needed. Maye a little more complicated than that but that is still the jist of it.

 

And the electric boost won't happen if the batteries don't have sufficient charge. So the overall system has to be smart enough to manage the battery charge for when it is really needed. It simply cannot provide energy for a sustained period of time.

 

The part about the environmentalist fighting the hybrids has been in the news for years.

 

In case you hadn't noticed I am not a big fan of the current generation of hybrids. I want a full electric car that uses a gas generator to recharge the batteries, not drive the wheels. That way I could turn off the gas motor 20 miles from home and charge it up with house current at night. Simply cannot do that with anything currently being offered by Honda or Toyota.[/quote']

 

You're right on some points here. You can't "shut off" the gas engine and run solely on the electric. The main reason for this is because people are, on the whole, far too stupid to do this without messing something up. Also, it wouldn't serve much purpose as the battery pack alone will only get you so far. The way the system works is that the car takes the heat generated from braking/slowing down and converts it into energy to recharge the battery. The engine is needed to recharge the battery, or else your battery will die and you'd be stranded if you had the gas engine shut off.

 

You're certainly right that the current generation of hybrids isn't like what you want, and they really aren't claiming to be. Most of the "hybrids will save the world" talk you hear is from activist groups and the media. The companies claim only that they acheive better milage and power in addition to PZEV status. They don't claim to be a ZEV, or to be a perfect system...its just a step in the right direction. Over time the technology will be improved and refined. Hydrogen propultion is the next big thing, and a few companies are already experimenting with this (BMW, to name a big one).

[crazy280]

Pop n wood, I don't mean any harm by saying this, but it sounds like you got some mixed info about hybrids. There are more than one type of hybrid currently produced. The Honda Insight is different in design than the Toyota Prius, for example. There was a great article in "Motor Trend" or one of those mainstream car mags a while back about this very subject, and they hashed it all out in an easy to understand manner. Someone on this site must have a subscription to that magazine. Anyone?

Anyhow, my neighbor recently bought a Prius, and the engine isn't even on most of the time- its usually the electric motor working, and regenerating during breaking. Great car, good bottom-end, and she says she gets about 42 mpg. Wierd too, because when you turn it on, it's silent. The first time I ever drove one of these things, I was turning the key going "what's the matter?" then I realized it was already on!

I go to San Francisco a lot and they have electric-car charging-stations in some of the big parking garages. So people are commuting in electric-only cars, I guess. But I don't know of any being produced other than those strange looking trike/bubble things.

Also, my understanding is that the environmental groups want ZEV's, but they are also the reason manufacturers are making hybrids. The manufacturers did NOT do it voluntarily (except Toyota and Honda). The current legislation says a certain percentage of all vehicles from any manufacturer must be hybrid, and another percentage must be zev, within some given date, like 20XX (in California). And most of the manufacturers fought it until just recently. That's what I remember reading, I could be wrong though...

[Moridin]

A digression...

 

While working at an aerospace company I had to deal with a cost accountant while writing some accounting software. They guy had just bought a new Suzuki Swift and was constantly bragging about how he was getting 36 mpg driving to a from work. It got to be really irritating to me and the other programmers working on this project. So' date=' I decided to do something about it.

 

Once a week for a month I added 1 gallon of gas to the Suzuki's fuel tank. Mr. Cost Accountant began crowing about how his car, "now that the engine was broken in" is getting 48 mpg! And then, after a month, I stopped.

 

The next week Mr. Cost Account was concerned. His fuel mileage had dropped 25% and he felt something was wrong with the car. Over the next three months the car went back to the dealer at least half-a-dozen times while Mr. Cost Accoutant fought with Suzuki to get his car "fixed." He lost that war and was a beaten man.

 

After a year he traded the car in on a Toyota Starlet.[/quote']

 

 

I remember that story. So mean and so funny at the same time.

[waynekarnes]

i'm waiting to see how the california legislators define hybrid ... might be able to fly solo in the commuter lane in the z ... if i ever get it out of the driveway again ...

[Pop N Wood]

From the Honda site's FAQ's about the Insight (http://automobiles.honda.com/models/faqs.asp?ModelName=Insight)

 

Q: Is this an electric vehicle?

A: No. The Insight primarily relies on a gasoline engine. Its electric motor "assists" by supplying extra power when needed.

 

Q: If I run out of gas, will the electric motor allow me to continue driving?

A: No. You cannot drive solely on the electric motor; the Insight relies primarily on its gasoline engine. However, if the electric motor becomes inoperative, the gasoline engine will function on its own.

 

Q: What is the IMA system's idle-stop feature?

A: When the vehicle stops, the IMA system's idle-stop feature temporarily shuts off the gasoline engine to save fuel and minimize emissions. The system restarts the gasoline engine. On Insights equipped with the available continuously variable transmission (CVT), the idle-stop feature is engaged when the brake pedal is depressed and the car has come to a complete stop. Once the brake pedal is released, the engine will restart.

Note: For Insights equipped with available climate control, the idle-stop feature will not operate while the A/C is on.

 

On the Honda, the electric assist motor sits where the flywheel is. In fact it is used as the starter. That would tell me it is not possible to turn the electric motor without turning over the engine.

 

Interesting comment about the Prius. I remember reading otherwise. checked the Toyota web site and notice that the current one is a "second generation" electric drive and has been changed significantly from the first gen. But even the 2nd gen has this in their FAQ

 

13. Can Prius run on electricity when it runs out of gas?

 

No. Though Prius can operate in electric-only mode when gasoline is in the tank, it is not designed to run without gasoline. Doing so could cause severe damage to the hybrid system, so drivers should be sure to keep gas in the tank at all times.

[BrandonsZ]

http://www.mini2.com/technical/cooper.php

 

How could such a little peice of sh#$.. ahem quality engineering weigh 1150kilos!!! 2500lbs!!! Maybe I'm getting too excited, but isn't them things tiny as heck? And still it only gets mid 30's for gas mileage! I know someone who has one, there's nothing to it. Unless they are putting weights on the car so it'll handle better?

[johnc]

Vehicle structures have gotten much heavier over the years. 30 mph front and rear impact and 35 mph offset impact requirements add weight. Air bags and related systems add weight. Tensioning belts and related systems add weight.

 

In addition, performance options add more weight. 6 speed transmissions are generally heavier then 5 speeds. 18" wheels and tires are generally heavier the 16" wheels and tires. A turbo or a supercharger and related plumbing add weight.

 

Even the Lotus Elise added a couple hundred pounds meeting US safety requirements.

[280zinsanity]

My 89 Honda accord lxi with 345XXX thousand ORIGINAL miles(no typo) yeild sme 30 mpg average still. I keep her tuned up very frequently and oil changes religiously, and i commute on the highway to work. I am very pleased with the mileage. Of course, this car does have a high flow muffler and CAI.. but that shouldnt change much concerning gas mileage.

[crazy280]

I've never driven the Insight, but it sounds like when you stop, it shuts off the engine instead of letting it idle, since it's attatched to the motor directly. The Prius has the motor next to the engine, and can run solely on the motor, solely on the engine, or both, and can display battery level, mileage, etc, in the dash/screen display.