V3 EDIS-x installation, set up, etc.

[BRAAP]

Pete,

Thank you. I’m “cut and pasting” my post that I just posted on the MS-EFI list here as we made large strides forward in regards to the EDIS. YES… All we need now is an “O” scope…

Hmm Hillsboro… Yes we SHOULD hook up on your next visit. I’ll buy the beer or Soda, your choice. Yeah, I get over to Hillsboro once in awhile…. Being as Dave Lum, (proprietor of http://www.datsuns.com and owner of the VG30DETT 510 that runs 12’s at 114+ which just so happens to be one of my best friends along with Ron Tyler who lives within 100 yards of my house and HE is responsible for making Dave’sVG30DETT powered 510 a reality), and another friend whom I shoot high end Air guns with is an engineer at Intel, you could say that I get over to Hillsboro once in a while. In reality, those guys make over to my place more often that I make it over to there place, LOL.

 

 

EDIS testing info…

 

Ok, I was able to finish the test bench today, no thanks to Ron buying me a 5th of Bacardi as incentive to HURRY UP!!! . The Bench is made from a large chunk of aluminum channel with all the appropriate holes drilled and tapped into it for mounting modules, spark plugs, and various coil packs. It is designed for a variety of quick and easy bolt up configs in very short order. On the right end of the bench is where the EDIS module goes, as far away as I could mount it away from the plugs and coils. On the left side are 8 spark plugs with the ground electrodes cut WAY back for much better visual “inspection” of the sparking event, thanks to Ron. I slotted the “channel” in such away that an EDIS-4 coil pack, or an EDIS- 6 can be mounted readily. I even went so far as slotting it for BOTH EDIS-8 coil packs as well. Then I made provisions for attaching the Dodge Neon 4 cylinder and Chrysler 6 cylinder coil packs as well. An all around EDIS 4, 6, and 8 testing facility. I think I covered at least 75% of the applications we might be testing in the future. At that, there is still room for the addition of other coils if the need arises.

First test on the new official test bench was my EDIS-6 system for my SOLO-II Datsun 240-Z using the Ford coil pack. Immediate sparks right from the get go, WOO-HOO. We had only one glitch that we still don’t know the answer to. When we shut down our prelim spin up that went perfectly, we set up the camera and went to restart it and no sparks. Hmmmm… . Did we somehow “POP” the EDIS-6 module?! After several attempts, nothing. We checked, double checked, and triple checked all the connections, every thing looked good. Tried spinning the 36-1, and again, nothing. After disconnecting the ground for a period of time and reconnecting it, turned on the mill and WA LA… SPARKS!!!!! No other issues arose during the rest of our initial play time with EDIS-6. (bizarre)

We stood in awe for awhile watching those 6 plugs sparking away while the mill run at 1480 RPM, the RPM’s confirmed with my ancient Cornwell “dial back to zero” timing light with built in tach which also has a setting for 2 stroke/wasted spark ign. It is old and slow, but it works, and seems to work fine.

I marked the 36-1 wheel with a sharpie and verified that the EDIS-6 does spark, off of the 6 tooth back from the missing tooth when set up properly. We expected the spark to be triggered at the “middle” of the 6th tooth, but in reality it was firing at the trailing edge of the 6 tooth (with the timing light set at 10 degrees BTDC. With the timing light set on zero, it was triggering off of the trailing edge of the 5th tooth behind the missing tooth as expected). I tired to get an accurate picture of this, but the angle only partial shows what I’m talking about. You can make out half the metal core of the VR sensor in that particular pic, and yes, that pic was taken with 36-1 “spinning” at speed and the timing light strobe visually stopped the 36-1 as it came around in the picture.

I know I’m forgetting something else but I’m sure Ron will fill-in whatever I missed, right Ron?

Overall, it was pretty neat to watch those “spark bolts” all lit up. Depending on our schedules over the next few weeks, we hope to do more testing, though no guarantees. I have a customers cylinder head that takes precedence over ALL other projects when it arrives…

 

 

 

 

The pic below is the test bench all ready to go. Left to righ:…, Spark plugs, EDIS coil pack next to that, EDIS-6 module, then the DBtoZ timing light, and the 36-1 wheel in the quill. Behind the whole apparatus is the automotive battery for power.

 

 

 

 

 

The pic below shows 6 plugs all lit-up from the running EDIS-6 system, WOO-HOOO... (note the "flux capacitor", LOL)....

 

 

 

 

 

 

This was our best shot of the plugs doing their job. This was a 15 second exposure and I think the 36-1 was spinning at 3400 RPM or there abouts. Ron would remember the exact RPM. At any rate, hundreds if not thousands of sparks are captured in this one picture.

 

 

 

 

 

This picture shows the 36-1 wheel spinning, (right hand side of the wheel is a blur from the extended exposure time), while the strobe of the timing light optically stopped the wheel on the left hand side. If you look closely, you can make out the missing tooth just to the left of the quill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pic below is of the 36-1 spinning under the strobe of the DBtoZ timing light and the camera was able to capture exactly what we saw. Note that the spark was actually occurring at the trailing edge of the 6th tooth. We were under the impression it fired in the middle of that tooth.

 

[fastzcars]

You the Man Paul, Those are great pictures. It's great that you're figuring this all out, and documintnig it all. I'll be getting a MS setup to run spark only for now, unitl I get my feet wet, and then converting a LT1 intake for my 383 first Gen SBC. Thanks again. And please keep us all updated.

[BRAAP]

You the Man Paul, Those are great pictures. It's great that you're figuring this all out, and documintnig it all. I'll be getting a MS setup to run spark only for now, unitl I get my feet wet, and then converting a LT1 intake for my 383 first Gen SBC. Thanks again. And please keep us all updated.

 

 

 

 

Luis, Thank you for the Kudos…

No doubt that we’ll keep everyone up-to-date on our findings as we progress, pics included.

 

BTW, have you thought about bugging Ron Tyler any more about those adjustable LCA’s? I’ll keep the bug in his ear on my end about the LCA’s. Maybe if you help keep that bug in his ear as well it might get the job done that much sooner… I’d be willing to give him what’s left of that.. “hic…” 5th of….”hic”…… Bicardi Gold… hic…., LOL

[pparaska]

Paul, this is really great stuff!

 

HEY!!! NICE FLUX CAPACITOR I see there!!

 

Oh yeah, I seem to remember that the EDIS VR DOES trigger off of the trailing edge of the tooth, so your observations back that up.

 

BTW, if you're looking for a used oscilloscope, go to "The Scope Man", Bob Garcia: Bob Garcia's email: esaronel@bellsouth.net or by telephone: 770-977-5701 (call no later than 8 PM Eastern time).

 

I just called Bob on that number to check it out, and he's waiting for your call . He said he has a great selection at the moment BTW.

 

I got an old but very good Tektronix 465 (nice little old scope!) from him. His service and PACKING are excellent. If you have any problems with your stuff, he will make it right. The first one he sent (after he checked it out) came DOA, due to a bad capacitor in the power supply. I shipped it back in the excellent packaging he sent it in and another showed up before mine got to him. The replacement has been working great and has been a great help with the MS debugging.

 

You really don't need much of a scope to work on MS stuff. Even this old Tek 465 is overkill for what I needed. But like Pete said, Tektronix is the best bet!

[280zNHChris]

The time lapse photo of the plugs is excellent. It shows how consistant your firings are and make me wonder why someone would use split plugs etc.. The chance of getting a 50/50 spark on a multiple pole setting seem much more remote than the consistant spark you are showing in the single pole set-up. Thanks for documenting your work in progress, obviously alot of work into it.

Chris

[z-ya]

Chris,

 

This is the setup that is going on the club car motor we were working on the other day. EDIS will give us very precise timing control, which we will need with an 8.5:1 CR supercharged L28.

[BRAAP]

Paul' date=' this is really great stuff!

.......BTW, if you're looking for a used oscilloscope, go to "The Scope Man", Bob Garcia: Bob Garcia's email: esaronel@bellsouth.net or by telephone: 770-977-5701 (call no later than 8 PM Eastern time).

 

I just called Bob on that number to check it out, and he's waiting for your call . He said he has a great selection at the moment BTW.

 

I got an old but very good Tektronix 465 (nice little old scope!) from him. His service and PACKING are excellent. If you have any problems with your stuff, he will make it right. The first one he sent (after he checked it out) came DOA, due to a bad capacitor in the power supply. I shipped it back in the excellent packaging he sent it in and another showed up before mine got to him. The replacement has been working great and has been a great help with the MS debugging.

 

You really don't need much of a scope to work on MS stuff. Even this old Tek 465 is overkill for what I needed. But like Pete said, Tektronix is the best bet!

 

 

Pete P.,

Ron has already placed a bid on “O” scope on eBay, (thank you ZYA Pete), but Ron may also call that O scope guy today as well.

Thank you guys for your help in the search for an O scope. It will GREATLY help prove and/or disprove ideas and theories as well as advance our experiments to another level and shorten the learning curve drastically.

 

Thank you guys…

[BRAAP]

First the DISCLAIMER!!!!!

Now keep in mind that all of the test results we post here are under certain conditions and will not be exactly representative of every setup under all situations. Our battery voltage on the test bench is only 12.3 V. In an operating vehicle running a fully operational electrical system, 13.5+ volts, 36-1 wheels with dirt, grime, and debris between the teeth or covering the VR sensor, or other 36-1 wheels and VR sensors, the results will vary. Not too mention the combustion process has a very strong influence on the performance of the high tension side of the coil itself, i.e. yours and others results can, and will vary.

The views and opinions expressed here are ours. The information provided here-in is for entertainment only, not for investment purposes. Lack of torque has been shown to cause big wings to sprout on the back of your Honda, and in some cases lack of torque has been shown to cause cancer in laboratory rats. Void where prohibited, batteries not included.

 

 

 

 

Latest update.

Went out his morning to perform some testing to answer Eric Fahls question. (Eric has been very instrumental in helping me sort through my laptop MT and MSnS-E software woes, I’m just glad I have the opportunity to return some info back to him that he can use.).

This mornings tests consisted of;

1) VR Voltage measurements,

2) At what VR to 36-1 wheel clearances will EDIS run at reliably?

3) Verify the EDIS-6 firing order, and

4) Does my Chrysler 6 cylinder coil pack work with the EDIS-6 module?

 

 

1) The VR AC voltage was measured at different RPMs, 140 rpm, 270 rpm, 1900 rpm, 3740 rpm, and 5600 rpm. These runs were tested using an Escort 36-1 wheel and an Escort VR sensor. All RPM’s were set per the mills settings and then verified using the inductive tach of the DBtoZ timing light connected to the running and sparking EDIS-6. Then I disconnected the VR leads from the EDIS system and clipped on my Fluke 87 DMM to the VR leads for Voltage measurements. Results are in the Excel sheet pictured below.

 

 

2) Then I reconnected the entire EDIS system and at all 5 RPM settings with a starting clearance of .045” VR to 36-1 wheel clearance, proceeded to add clearance between the VR and 36-1 wheel until EDIS-6 did something different or strange. I also had the inductive tach connected to see if EDIS would start to scatter or have intermittent spark when the VR clearances became too great. The results were interesting and didn’t seem to follow any trend. Suffice to say, EDIS will continue to spark at great distances, and when it hits that brick wall, it just shuts down, no scatter or intermittent spark. Also, we had the strobe going on the 36-1 wheel/damper to see of the timing would “wander” as the gap increased. NOPE! The ignition events remained ROCK solid steady no matter what the VR to 36-1 gap was, all the way out till EDIS shut down all together, and as soon as I brought the VR clearance back to where EDIS would light back up, timing events were right back where they are supposed to be.

The VR to 36-1 wheel clearances at which the EDIS shut down and the clearances which EDIS came back on line sparking, is at the top of the Excel spread sheet below.

 

 

3) Firing order of the EDIS-6 was confirmed as in the illustration below…

 

 

4) Yes, the Chrysler 6 cylinder coil pack runs on the EDIS-6 Module.

 

 

 

On the bottom of the spread sheet is mention of Ron’s voltage test comparing an Escort VR sensor to the 4.0 V-6 Explorer VR sensor on a spinning Escort 36-1 wheel at varying RPMs. The Explorer 36-1 wheel this sensor came from measures approx 3.7” or thereabouts. It appears that we just may have to acquire an Explorer 36-1 for more testing.

 

 

 

 

 

[BRAAP]

EDIS-8 is operational.

I couldn’t do all this testing today without at least verifying that my EDIS-8 system for my V-8 Datsun Z project actually works as well. Ron had the idea of completely cutting off the ground electrodes for a more “photogenic spark display”. I agreed and promptly chucked up each spark plug in the lathe and completely removed any remnants of the ground electrode what so ever, effectively making these cheapo AC plugs “surface gap” plugs. They sure do light up nicely, don’t you think?

Being as I love to take pics with my Nikon D-SLR, the EDIS-8 running surface gap plugs made for a great photo op. I’m sure these are pics that only a true gear head could appreciate….

 

This pic is the test bench and the EDIS-8 system sparking all 8 plugs on the left…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I couldn’t make up my mind which of these 2 pics was more impressive, so here are both of them. All 8 plugs all lit up using 30 seconds of extended exposure. There are over 5100 sparks present in each photo alone…

 

 

 

 

 

 

A pair of plugs arcing away…

 

 

 

 

 

One plug showing its cone of fire… 3400 RPM, 30 second exposure…

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

You are running EDIS in limp mode (no MS), right? Seems like the next step is to hook up you MS and test the entire ignition system out. You can calibrate your timing, and verify functionality. Test out your MS with a stimulator to check all the sensor inputs, and then hook it up to your EDIS test fixture to verify that you have the VR sensor, PIP and SAW signals wired correctly.

 

Pete

[BRAAP]

Why not just mount it flat to the shock tower without the Chrysler bracket?.......

 

 

 

 

Pete,

Sorry I didn’t reply to this question sooner. Completely skipped my mind after I read it originally.

I used the Chrysler bracket as it aimed the coil terminals more towards the middle of the engine for a slightly cleaner plug wire appearance, (yes I know, appearance isn’t THE reason to alter something when it comes to race cars, but …. you know… right?..... . LOL)

Of course the down side to this bracket is it makes the coil pack stick out that much further into the engine bay itself. I’ll probably remount the coil pack the strut tower sometime this season, we’ll see.

 

[BRAAP]

Paul' date='

 

You are running EDIS in limp mode (no MS), right? Seems like the next step is to hook up you MS and test the entire ignition system out. You can calibrate your timing, and verify functionality. Test out your MS with a stimulator to check all the sensor inputs, and then hook it up to your EDIS test fixture to verify that you have the VR sensor, PIP and SAW signals wired correctly.

 

Pete[/quote']

 

 

Pete,

Yes. The EDIS is running all by its onesie, no influence from any other source so it is technically running in “limp home mode”, i.e. default of 10 degrees BTDC, and we did confirm that 10 degrees on the initial test run of the bench.

We do have plans to hook MSnS-E to the running EDIS set up to test wiring configurations and our “MT” settings as you suggested. We probably wont use the STIM though, most likely just hook up the relay board and some resistors in place of the injectors, Rheostats in place of the Air temp and H2O temp, then plug in the TPS, and use my vacuum pump on the MAP sensor and just go for it.. The Test bench will be our simulated “spinning crank shaft”, if you will, MS shouldn’t know the difference.

[z-ya]

Hey, if it easy to make it look good while increasing functionality, why not?

 

I see what you mean from the overhead shot. I ran RX7 coil packs in this photo. Mounting them flat just above the frame rail allowed me to dress up the ignition wires so they look decent:

 

 

What valve cover is in the photo? Did you machine off the Nissan logo?

[BRAAP]

Pete,

Yes, l always set my valve covers on the mill table and machine off the NISSAN logo just to be a little different.

 

 

WOW!!! Your engine bay is gorgeous!!! Nice work my friend. Your plug wire routing is very nice as well, clean and uncluttered. Your fuel rail looks like the same stuff I recently purchased.

I just happen to have a couple of TURBO valve covers that I’m trying to get rid of and one of those rare odd ball “NISSAN” valve covers that are cast identical to the TURBO valve cover but it only has the word NISSAN cast in the same size font as the TURBO, (Japanese domestic market possibly?)

I could very easily machine off the “Nissan”, or “turbo”, or “both” from one of these valve covers if anyone is interested…

 

 

 

 

BTW, do you have any shots of those MAZDA coil packs? Are they coils only, i.e. no controls or triggers built in?

[z-ya]

Paul,

 

On your test setup, if you verify the functionality of the MS with a stimulator, then you can use your EDIS test setup just to confirm that you can control timing from EDIS. Then you are ready to try it on your L6.

 

Thanks. I bought the raw fuel rail stock from Kinsler, and then machined it myself.

 

The RX7 coil packs have both the dual tower coil and igniter in the same unit. They require a +5 square wave to fire them, so they are compatible with many different aftermarket ECUs. To use with MS would require many changes to the hardware and SW, because you need three outputs to drive the igniters. It could be done, but the EDIS gives you the same functionality with a single wire, and all the firmware is done. On my turbo car I'm drivng them with a Wolf 3D ECU.

 

I am interested in one of those NISSAN valve covers. Send me a PM with a price.

 

Hear is a pic of the race car I'm supercharging and adding EDIS to at a time trial at Watkins Glen last year:

 

[BRAAP]

Pete,

Love the BRE scheme. Nice car.

I have only one of these odd ball “NISSAN” valve covers, and three of the Turbo valve covers pictured. I also have a few of the ordinary generic L-6 valve covers as well. My early 240 “Nissan 2400 OHC” valve cover sold already.

 

 

 

 

The odd ball NISSAN valve cover does have an issue. Across the back of the valve cover it has nice long dent. That dent is cracked all the way through, i.e. it will most likely leak if not taken care of. (see pic, dent/crack are circled) I would suspect that the dent can be “filled in” on the outside and sanded smooth for visual appearances with a 2 part epoxy and even sealed on the inside, for added security against leaking, with this 2 part epoxy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can mill off any of the text from any of the valve covers if so desired.

Let me know if you are still interested and which one/s. I’ll make you a GREAT deal on the cracked, er, imean "cream-puff" odd ball NISSAN valve cover… "one Meeelion dolla's".. LOL.

PM me for more details and prices…

[z-ya]

The NISSAN covers are from Japan. I was at an engine importer at a place outside of San Antonio, and he had 5 L28s with that valve cover. I would probably grind off the plug wire mounting holes and weld them shut, so I can fix the crack at the same time. Send me a PM with what you want for it. I will use it on the race car with EDIS.

 

Thanks,

 

Pete

[BRAAP]

Pete,

Just a quick update on the race car progress Nothing new on the EDIS, yet, I’ll get to that when the relay board arrives.

I did however finally machine the intake manifold to accept the new injectors, cut off the rest of the crap I wont be using from the manifold, i.e. throttle shaft towers, etc. Machined the injector bosses in the new fuel rail and fabbed up some spiffy mounts for the fuel rail. Then bead blasted the manifold to remove the old gray paint. Next I’ll massage the manifold a little more over the weekend before final paint. Over all I am pretty happy with it thus far.

Here is the blasted/rough carved intake with the finished and painted fuel rail and mounts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The mounts were hard to get a good clean discerning picture of, (black amounts and flash photography), any how, this is the best shots I got…

 

 

[fastzcars]

Man Paul you do very nice work, Looks Factory.

[z-ya]

Nice work Paul!

 

I'm assuming that this rail is for O-ring injectors. Nice sturday looking mounts.

 

Friday I will be machining the pully for the EDIS wheel, so I'll post some pictures when I'm done. I'm also going to build a VR sensor bracket this weekend.

 

I've got most of the wiring done for the EDIS conversion, I'm just waiting for the Chrysler coil pack to come in at this point. I will also need to get the 4 pin connector.

 

Anyway, that's it for now.