Corzette Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 As most of you know Im in Japan for awhile and am collecting parts for the new Zette rebuild when I get back. I need some advice and HP numbers for my planned build. I wanted to go 383 but Id rather go 406/412. With that said here is what I am collecting parts for: SBC 400 60 over (412) 3.75 stroke forged knife edge. forged rods full floaters and SRP pistons with total seal rings AFR 190 Heads 2.02/1.60 68CC Chambers or AFR 210 heads 2.08/1.60 76CC Chambers Roller internals Cam maybe the Comp XR286HR Single plain intake Victor jR. Sanderson 1 3/4 full length headers Holley 850DP cAN ANYONE GIVE ME APPROX hp ON dESKTOP ETC? I want this to be streetable but fast on the strip. Im also doing Ross;s stub and axle upgrade with the R230. Can anyone chime in...I am collecting parts as we speak! I have the AFR 190s already but would the 210s yield any better? Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 Terry, My friend just built a 400 30 over with forged crank and rods, hyper pistons. He added a edelbrock nitrous system and at a 150 shot fragged the motor. It looks like he cracked a cylinder wall..damn 400 blocks. He also took out two pistons, fragged the ring lands also tore up two solid roller lifters and bent one push rod/ broke another! I like the old 010 350 blocks. You can stroke them too! If your set on 400 then maybe an after market block would be up your alley. My friend had two 400 blocks so he is lucky and can build another but sucks spending so much money after only 1500 miles on this one. Whats your email address as maybe I can try to send you a copy of Desktop dyno 2000. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted September 17, 2005 Share Posted September 17, 2005 your barking 500HP at sea level depending on compression. 400 block is the way to go for big HP. I can't wait until you get it back, get it going, so we can race! Damn, now I only have one glove......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Thanks guys...well I just want to do it right the first time. Dr Hunt, we can go to the track together but Ill be watching you race in front of me sounds like...lol. Just as long as its a Z Im cool with it! haha. Thanks Mike for the input. I have DD Dyno but Im at my Familys house right now. So maybe a stroked 350 to 396 would be a better option....I hear it takes lots of machining etc...Damn I miss turning wrenches.....damn it! Hell Ill be 47 before I can get back and only 42 right now......those R200s will be getting alot heavier by then I expect. Dr. Hunt and Mike we need to meet in Dallas in the future and go racing at the Motorplex! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boodlefoof Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 I have Desktop Dyno. Here are the assumptions... You'll be running 10:1 compression with either head, you're using the XR288 cam (I don't have a file for a XR286 and can't find one). With the AFR 190 head = 545 HP at 6500rpm and 510 # torque at 5000rpm (torque is over 400 # at 2500rpm). With AFR 210 head = 552 HP at 6500rpm and 516 # torque at 5000rpm (torque is higher across the board by about 5-10 #). Either combo looks excellent, The 210 heads are definitely not too big (just right in my opinion), but if you've already got the 190 heads... might as well use them! Caveat: Desktop Dyno isn't 100% accurate... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Terry, I agree, we should get together when you get back. Maybe get a group together and head out to Ennis for a little fun racing. I was not trying to talk you out of a 400 build, just that the blocks are not easy to find and when you do find one you have to be vary careful. Have the block checked and magged. My friend fragged his by simple detonation due to too much timing on the nitrous thus causing catastrophic failures everywhere. 400 blocks can be found just be careful. The rewards of a 400 are lots and lots of power! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HB280ZT Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Hi All, Have you thought about saving your pennies and getting a real Vette motor! Say a new LS7 with the 6 speed? If I had the time and could save the money that is what I would do. Just a thought. HB280ZT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 Corzette, Just name the day buddy. I don't know about being in front though, we'll see. IMHO the AFR 220's are sized correctly for the 400 inch and larger engines. I have 2 sets, one is on the 350 and it doesn't seem to be lacking in HP in any respect. I have built a 408 inch motor on a 350 block. It uses a 4 inch stroke crank. With Manley 6 inch rods, Manley 14:1 pistons for alky, big .700 + lift roller cam and some ported Brodix alum heads it made 700HP peak HP on the dyno and had wicked torque. Racing it in a Late model heat at Manzanita in Phoenix, driver Jerry Deal went from 5th (last) to first in 2 laps and lapped the field in 8 laps, it was a wicked motor. Several of the other late model drivers came over after the heat and wanted to know what we had for motor since alot of them buy engines and just got dusted bad. It takes some block clearancing, but it's no bid deal, really! Cam to rod clearance and piston to valve clearance are the only real issues to deal with. I think if your going to invest in the crank and rods, go with a 400 block and get some cubes going, get the AFR 227 heads and run the offset roller lifters and rockers, make some insano HP so I won't be alone at the end of the track, you might be instead! I think my 406 is only putting about 450 to 480HP to the ground at this altitude, so that's about 580Hp at the crank. I don't think you'd have too much trouble besting that. Damn, there went the other glove, oh well, I didn't like emulating Wacko Jacko that much anyway. I just got the 4.11's installed and the transbrake PG so I'm hooking that all up and trying to rewire the car and install my dedenbear crossover delay box. I'm tired of running Non Electronic class and racing 15 to 17 second cars. I'm hoping for some 9 second passes on motor at a better altitude. What about a visit back to the states? Mail me the keys and I'll pick you up at the airport in Dallas, he he.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted September 18, 2005 Author Share Posted September 18, 2005 Dammit guys now I wanna take the next boat back.....I wont be able to sleep at night lol.. Well Im contemplating on getting a 400 SBC 60 over from JNJ Racing cheap. Looking at shipping right now. Thanks for the advice Mike I appreciate it. When I get to the point of collecting cams and pistons etc I will get with you guys before I buy. I am getting Ross's billet stubs next month and the Z31 billet adaptors first. I have the axles and two LSDs already. Next will be the block then start on the internals so it will be a little while but I will have everything I need by next year. Im thinking of coming home next summer for a couple of weeks and may build the engine during that time....I may be dreaming but its ok to dream I guess.....one thing for sure is ILL BE BACK! You guys def need to come to San Angelo when I get back because they dont have any restrictions at all! We could run 8s and they wouldnt care! They are so cool that way...lol! Thanks for all the HP output numbers guys! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted September 18, 2005 Share Posted September 18, 2005 There you go.... I raise the bar to 9's and then you go talking 8's. You let us know when your coming, I'll buy the beer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I'd stay away from a .060" over 400 block, unless it's been sonic checked to a good wall thickness all the way around. I know it seems like a lot of extra money, but a World or Dart 400 block would make more sense for someone pushing the limit with N2O, etc. Look at what it takes to check and machine a used 400 block, and the new aftermarket ones that come fully machined (except for the fit hone) are not that much more money. And you have a MUCH stouter piece to beat on and bore more later! On that note, go for a 434 or something. The 406 is getting overdone these days . Or just buck up for a Shafiroff 472!!! It's only money! Oh, the SBC is undervalved at a 350 as it is! And under ported! Go with the 227 heads - the 190s will limit the engine you're building. If it were a truck engine not meant to run over 5500 rpm, yeah, the 190s would be fine. But they're going to be WAY too small to take advantage of a 406 or larger engine with the kind of cam, intake, etc. you're talking about. Forget what the freaking magazines say, the 190 is TOO small for 406 motors that are going to be raced! The 215 Canfields I'm running on my 406 are in no way too big - I can pull down to 1400 rpm in any gear and it will accelerate nicely from there. Look at the flow to cross sectional area ratio of the port, not just the volume to determine if the ports are "too big". Also consider that with the shorter rod/stroke ratios you get into with a stroker (even with 6" rods), the piston is being yanked away from TDC much more quickly, and a little port (and valve) will limit the initial flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 Well said Pete...thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Ditto, what makes AFR heads work so well, is the port shape, not the port volume. The AFR 220's use a 1205 intake gasket which is still too big for the ports, where the other comparable cheaper heads take a larger intake gasket like a 1206 or 1207 just to match up. It has a small cross section but is larger in and around the valve area where there is more obstruction. The price difference between the AFR 190's and the 220's or 227's is like $200, plus they come with full roller valve train already, which is worth the $200 in my book. I have 2 dart blocks, and I have (4) 4 bolt 400 sbc's. I don't use the 400's cause you end up with 1200 to 1500 by the time it's all said and done and I can buy the dart block for $1780 at Edwards. The dart I can bore to 4.185 safely even if it starts off at 4.000. So if a pennies worth of experience is worth $1000 today, I'd go with dart again or even World block IMHO. So, let's add that up. $1800 for block, $600 for eagle crank, $500 for eagle rods with the ARP2000 bolts, $600 for pistons, $1500 for AFR heads, $700 for roller cam and offset lifters off EBAY, $1000 for roller rockers, rings, bearings, gaskets, wires, manifold, etc. So, if I can add, that's $6700 and you get the pleasure of doing it right yourself. Also there is nothing Chevy in the entire engine, so it's a true Corzette hybrid!, less than half the price of Shafiroff and runs just as good. If it won't turn 8's then throw in a 250 shot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 I have 2 dart blocks, and I have (4) 4 bolt 400 sbc's. I don't use the 400's cause you end up with 1200 to 1500 by the time it's all said and done and I can buy the dart block for $1780 at Edwards. The dart I can bore to 4.185 safely even if it starts off at 4.000. So if a pennies worth of experience is worth $1000 today, I'd go with dart again or even World block IMHO. I've always heard that the 2 bolt stock 400 block was stronger than the 4 bolt. The main bearing webs seem to be weaker due to the 4 bolt setup. Oh, do you have any contact info for Edwards? Terry - have you decided on the World block yet? Do we have to come over there and twist your arm? Hmm. Maybe go with the raised deck, raised cam (9.325 deck height) Dart block and build a 6.125" rod 472? You need a wider pan (at the rail), longer timing chain and wider intake! I wonder about header clearance in the Z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted September 19, 2005 Author Share Posted September 19, 2005 Thats sounds like a great deal. I was looking at SpeedoMotive last night. I think Ill take your advice and go that route. By the time I get back I can buy just about anything I want I guess. Ill be sure to inquire your advice when time comes. I like the idea of a raised deck etc so it minimizes the machine work! Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted September 19, 2005 Share Posted September 19, 2005 Not sure if I'm preaching to the choir, but the raised deck is to allow the 4.25" stroke, and still use a 6.125" rod to get a rod/stroke ratio in the 1.44:1 range and a piston compression height of 1.075. That's still very short, and will require the pin to be in the ring land. The rod angularity, even with the raised deck and 6.125" rod will probably cause more than typical piston slap and oil burning, but yeah, this is a race car, correct? I think a mild-ish hydraulic roller in a 472 with about 10:1 compression would be a really nice mild street engine . Idle like a stocker, but put down the torque like a race 355 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jap tin Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 Why stay with a 23 degree head? You have to buy pistons any way so why not a 18 degree head? I have Brodix 18X heads on my 414 and you don't need off set lifters or rockers with them. They have cast intakes for them in 4150 or 4500 tops. I run a 9" deck with a 3.8 stroke so you can fit it in a standard block. The 18X's run under 2 grand complete and flow pretty good out of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted September 20, 2005 Share Posted September 20, 2005 http://ohiocrank.com/short.html CHECK OUT THE PRICE ON THE 454 sbc SHORT BLOCKand the heads below http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=306111&prmenbr=361 http://www.dartheads.com/manager/uploads/Tech%20-%20230%20IRON%20SBC.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted September 21, 2005 Share Posted September 21, 2005 Edwards number is 505-247-8821, I'm talking to Scott Edwards right now, I guess he's working late, and the price on the Dart little m with billet caps is $2179 and the price with nodular caps is $1806. If you call during their regular hours, Suzanne will answer the phone, she's very knowledgeable, and be sure to tell them I sent you. Well, I guess it's all about money. You send Jap Tin pleanty, he'll get the parts for you and they'll be waiting for you when you get back. Best deal I think you could ask for and his car flies, both right side up and upside down. Now that is what I call pleanty of HP!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gvincent Posted November 7, 2006 Share Posted November 7, 2006 I saw a local add for a 406 "up for sale is the 406 small block chevrolet engine. its time to upgrade! engine is full of the best. forged crank and h-beam rods from eagle. forged 10.5 to 1 pistons. custom grind camshaft. dart iron eagle heads. edelbrock performer rpm intake manifold. 750 double pumper holley carb. high flow water pump. hooker long tube headers for 2nd gen camaro. this engine has 450 horsepower!! dont miss out! approx 10k miles on rebuild runs MINT ANYONE INTERESTED CAN HEAR THIS BABY RUN BEFORE THEY BUY IT. STILL IN THE CAR AND WILL PULL IT FOR BUYER. 2000.00 or best offer please serious inquire's only =)" Does this sound like a fair deal? should I consider looking at this engine or go ahead and stick with my LS1 Thanks Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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