Turbo on the N/A motor Up and Running *pics*

[nienberg.11]

It's taken the better part of a year, but my ’77 280z turbo on the N/A project is finally at a stopping point.

Before I get into the details of the project, I have to thank the guys who helped me on it. One of my best friends and Hybridz's own TheSkrich was right there on the opposite side of the engine bay throughout this project, doing everything from wiring to breaking loose the infinite supply of rusted bolts, to providing the entertainment. Also, my dad was a big help, especially when those rusted bolts didn't come out so great and we needed precise drilling and tapping done. My parts supplier, Frankie from Z Performance Racing, provided hours of free phone support which helped immensely as he's done several similar setups. Thanks for everything guys!

I also have to give some background for why I did this project this way and why it took so long. First, I'm a poor college student living 2 hrs away from my tools, garage, etc., so I really have to make the most of what little time and money I can devote to the car. Secondly, my N/A motor runs great and only has 43,000 on it. Finally, the junkyards here in Ohio are few and far between and have almost no old Z's. This makes it basically impossible for me to find a good turbo motor, and even if I did, I would have to hang it from a tree limb to put it in the car because I don't have an engine hoist.

I'll try to list the modifications involved in this project in a logical order...

 

Exhaust: Garrett T3/T4 .63/.50 Turbo with stage 1 trimmed turbine wheel and water cooled bearings; Modified 280ZXT manifold; external wastegate with 1" stainless pipe going straight to the atmosphere; 2.5" straight-through exhaust piping with a performance glass pack inline with a Magnaflow muffler; '83 zxt downpipe

 

Intake: K&N universal 3"x10.5" filter; turbo afm with n/a guts; '83 zxt j-pipe; N47 manifold with egr and pcv recirc. removed; Eclipse BOV; pvc and household plumbing coupler intake at the moment; I have a huge aluminum bar and plate IC to be installed professionally, and when it goes in, real intake piping will go in with it.

 

Fuel Delivery: Walbro high pressure pump; BEGI FMU; under-hood fuel pressure gauge; all new soft fuel lines; '83 zxt injectors

 

Ignition: MSD Blaster 3 coil; NGK wires; stock dizzy, still using vacuum advance, but with a check valve installed so that it doesn't see boost.

 

Engine Management: I plan on catching a lot of crap for not using Megasquirt, but from everything I've read it's a project in itself and I don't have time for it. I run the stock '77 ecu with the tps unplugged so that its only input is from the afm. Under boost, fuel is added by the fmu. Simple but effective.

 

Boost Gauge: I realize this isn't really a category, but I have to show off the custom work I did here. I got a cheap eBay boost gauge and adapted its guts into my clock housing. After a couple hours of work and a little glass cutting this is what I came up with. Since it’s in the clock housing it fits perfectly in the dash and lights up using the stock green backlighting.

 

 

You're probably wondering how the car drives. I only got to drive it for a few short minutes before heading back to college last weekend, but the car felt awesome at 5 psi (I have an mbc to install and plan on running 10 psi after tuning with wideband). It also sounds excellent. Under normal conditions it's deathly quiet, which is how I like it, but under boost when the wastegate’s own exhaust is opened, it takes on a louder, deeper sound which complements the car's acceleration under boost nicely.

[Pyro]

Good job!

 

What kind of fuel pressure are you running at 5 psi of boost?

 

You may need two stock pumps in parrallel to supply enough flow at high pressure.

 

What are you doing for ignition timing retard?

[nienberg.11]

At 5 psi it doesn't need much over the stock 30psi. Its around 40-45, which is probably a little high, but I want to keep things safe until I can borrow a wideband and see where I'm at as fas as air/fuel ratios. As i mentioned above, I'm not running any stock pumps. I removed the stock pump and replaced it with the a Walbro 255 lph high pressure pump which can support over 100 psi. You can actually see it in the picture below my fuel system description. It's the silver canister wrapped in black foam on the wall of the engine bay. I didn't trust the stock pump for high pressures at all, and I saw that a lot of people on this site run the same Walbro pump and it works well for them.

[sims76]

Well done, nice work. Enjoy.

[nienberg.11]

As far as ignition timing retard, the timing is not very precisely controlled, but basically I have the timing set for it to run well under n/a manifold pressures, and some of that timing gets taken out when the car hits boost and closes off the check valve in the vacuum signal line to the dizzy.

[SonOfZZZap]

Looks good man! You are in the same boat as me being a poor college student. I've been working on my own turbo project for a while and I only have about 4-6 months left to finish so I can take my Z with me to UTI in Houston. props man!

 

-ZZZap

[s/cL3.0]

Nice.. Hope its fun..

[Guest bastaad525]

yeah I'm sure you already know and I didn't read the replies to see if anyone else already said it, but be VERY careful running that on the stock 77 EFI.

 

You said your motor is in such great shape at very low miles, well running a big turbo with way too little fuel is a surefire way to make it be in NOT such great shape in a hurry.

 

At the very least get yourself some stock turbo 260cc (or was it 270 I always forget) injectors or swap up to the SVO 370 cc injectors, you can get a used set for well under $100 easily.

 

YES I know you said you have a BEGI FMU, it's a good unit I have one as well, but it can only do so much. It's probably plenty of fuel if you keep the boost at or below the stock 7psi and no intercooler, but you wont know until you get it on a dyno with a wideband, which should be REALLY soon. Pyro can help you out here because his crazy *** did a similiar thing running way high boost on stock N/A EFI, very high fuel pressure and two fuel pumps to keep it up. Not the best way to do it but it can be done, no doubt.

 

But at least please please please get it on a dyno ASAP so you don't take any risks. Keep in mind your higher compression as well and just be cautios (sp?) when it comes time to start turning things up. Such a low mileage engine is really a rare thing and would be a shame to blow it up.

[nienberg.11]

Fuel Delivery: Walbro high pressure pump; BEGI FMU; under-hood fuel pressure gauge; all new soft fuel lines; '83 zxt injectors

...the car felt awesome at 5 psi (I have an mbc to install and plan on running 10 psi after tuning with wideband).

 

Bastaad, thanks for the warnings, I'm well aware of how helpful a few fresh sets of eyes on something like this could help bring problems to the surface that I had never thought of, and will take all the constructive criticism I can get if it will help protect my Z. However as you see I already have the 270cc injectors, plans in place to use a wideband, and like I told Pyro, the stock pump is gone and I went ahead and spent the money on the Walbro which supports over 100 psi fuel pressure. As far as I can tell, the only difference between my fuel delivery and yours is that you have the turbo ecu which I assume means you can get more injector pulse width than me. I'll just have to run a little more fuel pressure than you to get the same results.

[nienberg.11]

Son of zzzap, it's good to see some other poor kids on here . Will you be running a similar setup or swapping in a turbo motor?

[proxlamus©]

congrads on getting the N/A ECU to run right with the turbo..

 

 

my car ran filthy filthy rich and was terrbile to tune...

 

Open up the dizzy, and silicone up the advnace slots, so the dizzy does not advance

[nienberg.11]

Prox, I thought your richness problems were largely as a result of running 370 cc injectors, and then you switched back to the stock injectors for a while. Anyways, mine is running great, and is probably somewhat rich, but certainly not filthy rich; no thin smoke like I've seen when turning the fuel pressure too high. As far as the timing, I'm sticking with the check valve setup for now, as the car is running strong. When I get it tuned with wideband, I'm going to have the timing looked into more closely also before turning up the boost.

[nienberg.11]

btw prox, what kind of boost are you running these days. I've heard from a guy who tried this same thing a couple times that somewhere around 15 psi, the n/a ring lands won't be able to handle the thermal expansion on them and will shatter. Also, I've haven't been able to find any numbers on your setup. Have you tested your top end? 0-60? Quarter mile? rwhp? I don't have any of this info on my car yet and won't until I can drive it on a regular basis spring quarter.

[big-phil]

hey looking good. i'm up in oklahoma now visiting the inlaws, I need to try to keep my car parked untill I can get the begi on and the fuel pressure gauge. when I do drive it I don't get into the boost and I keep a close eye on the fuel/air ratio guage which seems to stay in the rich but if i get into to much it goes lean so no more boosting it for me untill its all done! I also think I'm going to get a bigger fuel pump.

[cygnusx1]

Nice job and congrats for taking the time to complete a project. I have found that as much as poverty comes into play, people just lose the will to finish and you see half finished cars on front lawns. As a temporary solution to a possible detonation, you may consider a home made water injection system. You obviously have the skills to fabricate one and it is a cheap way to add insurance while running higher boost and no IC.

 

Just ask Gray Zee....http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=105547

 

 

I was a poor kid too...it took me 15 years to get my Z as it is now.

[nienberg.11]

cygnus, thanks for the kind words and advice. I have given some thought to water injection in the past, but I actually have a very nice IC. I'm just saving up to have it installed. I don't have a welder, chop saw, tubing bender etc, so I'm having that part done professionally.

[SonOfZZZap]

I am swapping in an L28ET hopefully by Xmas. All that is left to really order is a clutch and wideband. All stock turbo efi for the moment, and I have been contemplateing running a slightly higher CR(8:1). Right now its only a matter of time and money. I am makeing sure I do it right the first time so that I do not have to keep going back and changeing things *cough* prox clutch flywheel*cough*cough* (Sorry Ryan hahaha). But wish me luck, its hard spending what little money I can muster up to get the good stuff.

 

Later

 

~ZZZap

[nienberg.11]

zzzap, tell me the story about prox's clutch/flywheel so hopefully I can learn from whatever it was.

[SonOfZZZap]

Haha, just message him and ask.

[Guest bastaad525]

Bastaad, thanks for the warnings, I'm well aware of how helpful a few fresh sets of eyes on something like this could help bring problems to the surface that I had never thought of, and will take all the constructive criticism I can get if it will help protect my Z. However as you see I already have the 270cc injectors, plans in place to use a wideband, and like I told Pyro, the stock pump is gone and I went ahead and spent the money on the Walbro which supports over 100 psi fuel pressure. As far as I can tell, the only difference between my fuel delivery and yours is that you have the turbo ecu which I assume means you can get more injector pulse width than me. I'll just have to run a little more fuel pressure than you to get the same results.

 

 

My bad, I did NOT notice that you said you were running 270cc injectors. In that case you are fine for fuel, and with the FMU especially you can support quite a bit of boost. It's not the BEST way to run, for sure... you should see some of my dyno's with the air/fuel ratio... WAY rich between 3000-4000rpm, lost quite a bit of power in that range because of it, but it worked well enough for me and kept me from running lean on top.

 

That is not the only difference betwween the turbo and N/A ECU, however, which brings up another issue I hadn't even thought of that can also be potentially engine threatening. Ignition timing. The Turbo ECU has control over timing to some degree and does give a lot more retard under high load conditions. With the N/A ECU you get NO retard regardless of how much boost you run, rather, you get mechanical and vacuum advance. So you are probably getting too much advance under boost and that together with your higher compression can be dangerous.

 

If I were you I would consider getting an MSD or similiar unit that retards ignition timing under boost. You might be fine at your current boost level but at some point as you up boost timing could become an issue so just keep that in mind that you might need to get one of those at some point.