Clifton Posted November 13, 2005 Share Posted November 13, 2005 You should move your Walbro back to where the stock pump was or use you stock pump as a feeder pump. They are better at pushing fuel than pulling. It may limit your volume pulling fuel that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 13, 2005 Author Share Posted November 13, 2005 Bastaad, I think I might get one of MSD's devices for timing retard. I've looked into them before and found that they weren't that expensive or difficult to set up. Thanks for reminding me about that. Clifton, I wasn't aware of that. I'll move it further back. -Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 I have my MSD fuel pump in the stock fuel pump location. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kazuya1274 Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 nienberg.11, Your project reminds me of what I did on my ZX. I did end up smoking that engine at the track. I agree w/ bastaad on the ignition timing issue. I didn't know about that difference back then, and that's probably what smoked my engine at the track. It was bad, I had a hole in one of the pistons, stuff you only see pictures of. I then swapped in the turbo block I had, and ran the same combo w/ it. The lower compression really helped out. After that swap, I noticed the difference b/t compression ratios. I highly recommend some time of ignition retard for you at the top end just to be safe. Good job, good luck, and enjoy your turbo Z!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 Kazuya, sorry to hear about that first motor. I'm definitely going to work on the timing issue before going any further. When you talk about compression ratios though... I was reading a web page somewhere and a guy had listed the types of pistons in each Z block. According to that page, I have n/a dished pistons. Obviously I'm going to sound like an @ss if there is no such thing, but if that page was right, I have about the same c/r as the turbo motor. The big difference is that I would still have thinner ring lands than the turbo pistons and simply can't run as much hp. Can anyone else shed some more light on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 14, 2005 Author Share Posted November 14, 2005 Bastaad, back to the differences between our fuel delivery... I was talking to Big-Phil last night and we got on the subject. It got me wondering if for the sake of having a more consistent air/fuel ratio under boost while running an fmu, it wouldn't be better to have the n/a ecu. This might sound dumb at first, but the way I figure it, my ecu keeps the correct air/fuel ratio for below atmo. pressures, and once boost is reached, my pulse widths are constant, so the only change in fuel supply as boost increases is more fuel pressure. Therefore, I don't see why I shouldnt be able to stick close to one air/fuel ratio throughout the various manifold pressures. In your case, the turbo ecu is adding pulse width in boost, as well as the fmu adding pressure, so you have two things compensating for your need for more fuel, which may be why it's tough for you to maintain a steady air/fuel ratio. Let me know what you think about this whole idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 260ondubs Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Nice work getting to all go smoothly. I finished my NA to turbo project a couple of months ago... it's pretty freakin' sweet to finally be able to drive it. Enjoy it man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 congrats on the project. i ran the 77 ecu on my L28ET for the longest time with a aeromotive a-1000 adjustable FPR and a walbro 255lph pump and turbo injectors. mine ran very very rich but my afm was tuned for 370cc injectors and plus my thermoster was bad, once i upgraded the injectors and fooled abit with the afm and replaced the bad sensor the car ran awesome!!! it was still a tad rich on WOT.. around 10.6 or so but the small fixes helped the daily driving alot!! DONT get the MSD 6-BTM... i did it and for the price its easier and somewhat cheaper and better to go with MSnS.... im using my BTM as my "6AL" box now and run a Microtech Full Standalone. congrats again! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 Yes, move that pump to the back and as low as possible. The best way to handle the timing with the stock ecu is to just lock the mechanical advance and use the vacuum advance as normal. Then set the timing as high as possible before detonation. 18 degrees is a good starting point for a high compression turbo. The mechanical advance can be locked by welding up the slots in the distributor. Some people have just used silicone to stop the pins moving in the slots. The vacuum advance will shut down during boost so not to worry about that. Since the stock ecu and stock tach work off the distributor, I think you will have problems with the MSD boost timing retard. That is why I think it is best just to lock out the advance. Yes, my car is set up a little crazy. But I bet I got the record for the most HP from the stock NA injectors! Lately I have been running 15 psi of boost, 100 psi of fuel pressure at max boost, 27 degrees total timing, shifting at 6500 with a MSA stage 1 turbo cam and a T04b/t3 turbo. I have to say it is running very strong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 how much power out of the stock n/a injectors did you have??? and at what boost psi?? mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyro Posted November 14, 2005 Share Posted November 14, 2005 My memory is getting foggy but this might help get a hp number. Well, with the stock turbo and stock cam and 12 psi of boost it dyno'd at 235hp and ran 13.8's at 103 - 104 mph in the 1/4 mile (76 280z with ac, stereo, spare tire, 200lb driver). Then I install a bigger turbo (t04b/t3) and stage 1 turbo cam and ran 13.6 at 108mph with 13 psi of boost. No dyno this time but I did use a G-tech meter at 13 psi of boost using a 2800 lb car weight and got 274hp. But not sure about how accurate those are. Finally I refined my fuel pump system which now more consistantly makes fuel pressure which in turn allows more boost, but I haven't taken it to the drags or dyno since the 108mph run. However, I can say the car feels much quicker with the better fuel system at boost levels between 12 and 15. I would change to an aftermarket ecu but I just can't image it running any better so why change it. I just got lucky with my combo. Trying not to be overally optimistic, I'm guessing at least 110mph in my next trip to the drags which should put the car right at 290 wheel hp with 15 psi of boost. With 85 psi of "net" fuel pressure (100psi-15 psi boost) will make a 19 lb injector (rated at 43 psi) flow like 280cc injector. (85/43)^1/2=1.4, 1.4 x 19lb = 26.7lb, 26.7 x 10.5 = 280cc. And six 280cc injectors at 85 psi of fuel pressure with a bsfc of 0.65 (turbo engine) and a 97% duty cycle will make 335 crank hp. So I'm on the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 15, 2005 Share Posted November 15, 2005 Pyro - It's been shown time and again and was my own experience as well, if you're using a Gtech Pro, one of the most recent ones, SS or RR model, as long as you have your weight entered accurately, it will give consistently LOW hp numbers. My car has dynoed several times in the high 220 to 230 hp range, and the gtech gave me consistent 200-210. If you check the Gtech forums you see these results are VERY typical. So if the Gtech gave you 274, you're probably close to 300 whp. Just my guess, anyways. neinberg11 - your theory on the N/A fueling thing sounds pretty logical. The stock ZXT EFI likes to run really rich in the mid rpm, even when bone stock. The first time I dynoed my turbo setup it was 100% stock except the boost was turned up to 10psi, and I was richer than 10:1 (off the chart on the dyno sheet) in the 3000-4000rpm range. The FMU just basically allowed me to maintain the EXACT same fuel curve, but supporting 4psi more boost and also cooler/leaner air due to an added intercooler. If I overlay my 10psi, stock fuel system wideband printout over my 14psi printout with the RRFPR, they are literally exactly the same, with the exception that the RRFPR 14psi curve maintains a little richer towards redline (10psi on stock fuel I was into the unsafe 13:1 area after 5000rpm). On an N/A with turbo injectors and an FMU, I really couldn't guess what the fuel curve would look like, probably rich thru the whole curve by default. You could and probably should do some tweaking of the AFM to compensate for the bigger injectors, and then use the FMU to adjust the WOT high RPM mixture. But of course, you're going to need dyno time or you're own WB to do any of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 15, 2005 Author Share Posted November 15, 2005 Bastaad, I actually have tweaked the afm pretty extensively, and like you said, there will be more of that to get the air/fuel ratio where i want it once I tune w/ wideband. A friend of mine has a very nice wideband w/ datalogging and has offered to spend some time on my car with that. None of this is going to be happening till spring when the weather is once again z car suitable and I can bring the car to college with me, but as soon as I get some numbers and charts on this setup I will be posting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
24OZ Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I run the stock '77 ecu with the tps unplugged so that its only input is from the afm Just trying to get my head around that wouldnt having it connected help with additional fueling at WOT and therefore help increase fuel needs when boosting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I can't believe you guys are patient enough to actually continue tuning with the N/A electronics.. I hated it soo much.. ahh! Plus for the price of a Rising Rate FPR you can buy MegaSquirt and never have to worry about any fuel or timing issues again! ever!! =) but yeh ... nienberg.11 the 225mm didnt work so hot for me... at all.. OEM clutch replacement from AutoZone and a newly resurfaced flywheel and it slipped bad.. so i gave up and bought a 240mm flywheel and a ACT clutch.. no slippn at all! yeppie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 240Z, Thats an excellent question. With a turbo ecu, what you are saying would be the case. With the n/a ecu and a turbo however, the position of the throttle no longer accurately reflects the amount of air going into the motor. The turbo causes atmospheric or above-atmospheric pressures when the throttle is not fully open. Basically my afm signal (and i'm pretty sure there's also a tach signal somewhere) are now the only things the ecu needs to supply the correct amount of fuel with my setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nienberg.11 Posted November 21, 2005 Author Share Posted November 21, 2005 Prox, I'll be driving it this weekend, so maybe I'll get to see it slip for the first time. If it does, I'll be asking you for some tips on how you upgraded yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 yeah but it's a lot easier to install and tune an RRFPR not saying it's better... if I didn't have this immense fear of trying to rewire my whole EFI system from scratch and then tune it (you know... no big deal) I'd have gone with MS already. MS has always been kickin around in my head... I've always wanted to do it. There's no denying it works great and guys are putting down VERY nice numbers on it, who was it that got 200 rwhp running the stock 6psi/stock turbo and no intercooler?? That was freakin amazing and eye opening... and you're not gonna get that out of an RRFPR Who knows... if I end up never being able to sell my car, at some point I probably will go MS myself... more likely to happen if I can find someone local who has the time and knowledge to help me out just enough to be sure I avoid any major problems and get the car running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSkrich Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Riding in and driving the car was an awesome experience. When you hear the boost coming in then feel it..Wow its a whole new animal. Can't wait till you get the intercooler piped in, wideband tuned, and the boost turned up. Excellent budget hotrod. Im really jealus because I set my goals so high for my Z that it is going to be a loooong and expensive road before I ever get to enjoy it. Where mike gets to enjoy his daily. Don't get so wrapped up in being the best that you never get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I think im going to build a turbo car or v8 to get me through until i get the DragZ done. Sorry that was way off topic. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(goldfish) Posted December 19, 2005 Share Posted December 19, 2005 ....I was reading a web page somewhere and a guy had listed the types of pistons in each Z block. According to that page, I have n/a dished pistons. Obviously I'm going to sound like an @ss if there is no such thing, but if that page was right, I have about the same c/r as the turbo motor. The big difference is that I would still have thinner ring lands than the turbo pistons and simply can't run as much hp. Can anyone else shed some more light on this? From my understanding you are right on the pistons. But your head has much smaller chambers than the P90's. That makes for your compresion to be higher than the zxt engines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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