t5 VS t56!

[HarrisonTX]

Alright, i cant stop flip flopping!

I have just about everything figured out for my z, aside from the tranny.

First i wanted the t56, they idea of 80mph at somewhere around 2000 RPM is awesome to me, but its so expensive... or is it.

My original plan was a t-56 with the weir bellhousing...

But then, I talked to some people who suggested..

Get a t5, run it till i blow it up, take it out ( im a pro at tranny pullin, so it wouldnt bug me much) send it g-force, spend $1000 and get a bullet proof t5, and save the 100 lbs the t56 would cost me, and still probably not spend as much as a t-56

But, then i talked to some anti- g-force people, who said they sent off their t-5, and ended up with a $2000 bill after labor, and bs.

So now the t56 isnt sounding all that bad

What do yall think?

[Pop N Wood]

Search through Mike Kelly's old posts. He had some bad experiences with G force.

[510six]

Even though I am running an L series motor, the setup still put down more than 500 rwh and almost 500fpt and the T56 survived over 200 hard drag launches on slicks before having to be rebuilt and upgraded.I am a beliver in the T56.Plus it delivered 28mpg on the freeway @70mph at 1600rpm off boost.

[BRAAP]

FWIW, the T-56 is heavy, but not 100 lbs heavier than the T-5. My world class T-5 behind the 350 in my 280 Z weighed in at 85 lbs, (same weight as the Datsun 5 speed), and Ron Tylers T-56 that he ran behind his LT-1 in his 240 Z weighed in at 135 lbs, both trannies were weighed on the same scale.

The T-5 has a slightly wider spread in gear ratios and personally, I prefer the T-5 ratios over the tighter T-56 for street car, (The T-56 comes in a few different ratio spreads, but all are closer ratio than the World Class T-5 except for one T-56 that is available from GMPP as direct bolt up to the traditional SBC and it comes with the same 1-4 ratios as the W/C T-5).

Here is page that discusses the GMPP Retrofit T-56 for the traditional SBC.

 

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/frame.html?/ChevyTransmissions/gmt56.html

 

 

Also, the World class T-5 is a pretty tough tranny. I put over 15,000 HARD miles on mine including several passes down the strip at 12.3 @ 113 MPH and on more than a few occasions, (to prove to those that didn’t believe the car cold do it with the welded diff), 1st though 4th gear burnouts, and not just chirping the tires in fourth gear, but two LONG black marks down the street over 100 yards long from 4th gear!!!! The tranny shifted very smooth and precise. The hard part is finding one! It took me over 3 months to find that one and that was back in 1997! Mine came from a 1991 Formula Firebird. I guess they are even harder to come by now.

Good luck…

[Brad-ManQ45]

You might want to elaqborate on the build level of the 302 in order to match tranny's properly.

 

ne of the early F-car T56's might be a better match than a later one, if you don't go T5...

[HarrisonTX]

Well, Its gonna be nothing special.

 

Bowtie vortec heads, midrange XE, or VooDoo cam

Performer or so equal intake, smaller holley

Less than 400 horsepower.

 

Nothing too big

I dont want to hear, Ah, you wont break a t5 with 400hp, i dont wanna risk it....

[5foot2]

Make sure you give some thought to the torque curve of the motor as it relates to the 5th or 6th gear ratio in the trans and the ratio in the diff. The 302 is not known for it's torque, so 1500-2000 rpm @ 70 on the interstate may be bog city. Of course, the same holds true with first gear. Too much rear gear with the wrong motor and a t56 and you'll sound like a tractor trailer taking off.

 

3:55 ish gears and std. t56 first would be fun with the 302 if you can hook it up.

[HarrisonTX]

Bog city, if thats the case, then ill slam it in 3rd, if i get into a sticky situation, it takes about half of a second to down shift...

Too much gear?

I have a 3.42 first gear with a 3.42 rear gear in my Malibu, i think you would descride that as a "Tractor" i love it, i do have to shift at about 10mph, but holy **** do i get there fast.

 

You talk about the car hookin up, and you mention that the lower rpms dont make power, well, thats good i think.

I dont want power starting at 1,000 RPM, i want to power to kick in, once the car is moving, and traction is, somewhat established. Otherwise i would boil the tires (which im still probably going to do)

If the power ban starts at 2,500, thats great.

that low first in a t.56 will help out in that case.

[BRAAP]

QUOTE

 

Nothing too big

I dont want to hear, Ah, you wont break a t5 with 400hp, i dont wanna risk it....

 

 

End of quote…

 

 

 

Horsepower isn’t what breaks trannies, TORQUE is what will break the tranny. Trannies are rated in torque capacity, not HP capacity. That torque rating is given to take into account that some of the general public will abuse it with brutal launches. The World Class T-5 is rated from GM/BW at 325 Lbs/Ft of torque and that takes into account the abuse from Joe Blow’s teenager trying to impress his buddies in the High School parking lot in a car that weighs considerably more than a Z car, i.e. the 4th gen Camaros and Firebirds that these trannies came in. Being as the Z car is relatively light weight, and if you use a light weight flywheel, you won’t be working the tranny as hard and if you don’t abuse it by doing stomp-&-dump launches on a regular basis, the T-5 will hold up for ever even behind a big block just fine. Generally speaking, the more cubes, the more torque and as mentioned previously, torque is what “works” the tranny, not HP. Being as you are planning to run only 302 cubes, I would not hesitate for an instant to run the World Class T-5, even it made 500 HP, the T-5 is a great match for a mild to hot 302 in a lightweight car such as the Z, especially if you are running the lightweight 13 lb GM Flywheel, as it’s torque output still won’t be as much as an equivalent HP 350 or 400.

Now if you are planning to boost it in the future, which will increase the engine torque, and you plan on performing some Hard launches with sticky tires at the drag strip, then maybe the T-56, but if not, hands down the World class T-5, if you can locate one.

Any how, that’s my $.02 on the subject.

[Mikelly]

I have some first hand experience with both the T56 and the aftermarket T5s.

 

The T56 I sold Tom Sumner was 145+ pounds for the tranny with aluminum bellhousing. The T56 flywheel is truly massive and about 42# for the 93-97 models. When you add those two, you're looking at a heavy combo. The Gforce unit we bought for Jim's car was UBBER light and very nice shifting. My TKO600n 5 speed is about 10-15# heavier. Add the Lakewood or McCleod Bellhousing to that and you get an additional 30#. However, THe benefit of the TKO or customized T5 is strength and custom gearing. I personally believe that the 5 speed is a better deal overall than the T56 in many applications, excepting the LS1/2/6 type combos.

 

Search all you want for prices, but my experience found that D&D had the best prices on the TKOs and forget about "Bubba" and his Gforce. The guy was a real piece of work to "chat" with on the phone.

 

Mike

[HarrisonTX]

Wow Braap, and mikelly, awesome info guys, that really helps

 

So, Maybe yall can school me on the t-5's

Non world class = weakest t5

World Class = a litte tougher

TKO = toughest?

 

Is that about how it works?

Ive decieded to go against g-force, i have heard so much crap about them lately...

 

I checked at D&D, they dont have prices, about how much will a a tko run?

[BWRex]

I'm interested in some opinions and comparisons too.Would it be reasonable to get a 'standard T-5,take it to a reputable trans shop,and have some of those'beefier'parts installed on the rebuild?if you had the 3 T-5's sitting in front of you,what are the telltale differences?

[Heavy Z]

I also run a wc t5 in my Z. It is being spun by a 327 around 400hp/tq through 275 nitto drag radials. I added a countergear stabilizer from gearzone since it was easy and cheap. 1 1/2 years of daily ab-use with no problems whatsoever. $800 total cost from a local shop. Good luck in your decision.

[Mikelly]

Harrison, You've got the list about right.

 

My personal opinion is that if you're staying below 400WHP (Not CRANK HP) then you're going to be fine with a WC T5 with a few minor upgrades. Go to D&D's website and scope the parts to customize one. D&D's tech line is GREAT and they can tell you what you'll need to fortify your T5. They also have all the diagrams online for you to do it yourself. Use a Digicam or video cam when you disassemble your tranny and you won't have any re-assembly issues.

 

When I bought (Well when it was bought for me) the TKO600, It cost $1760 shipped and came with a Steeda TRIAX Shifter. I got road race gears in mine, since It is mainly going to be a track car. I don't think it is a good gear range for daily driver status though... Order some TALL 5th gear ring to aid in fuel efficiency. I bought Jim's Custom T5 through 5-speeds.com before Paul Cangialosi had his falling out with Cletus at Gforce and that tranny was AWESOME... It shifts so smooth and is an amazing and truly light weight tranny. If you can find someone who does their own re-assembly of the Gforce tranny, you'll be much better off than getting them straight from Bubba. Paul C. took the Gforce unit and disassembled it, hand fit everything, filed down everything to shift properly without issues, cleaned up the castings on the cases, and made sure that the Notchiness of the T5 was gone when it went out the door... I believe Jim McNemar's T5 is as good or better than my TKO ONLY because Paul did the custom work on his tranny. Paul does a LOT of Speed World Challenge Jaguars and Corvettes, as well as some of the VRL Vipers and has extensive knowledge of the T5 and T56 setups.

 

There are of course other alternatives with companies selling you a custom TKO or T5 five speed. Just understand that a custom unit will not come with a bellhousing ($300-400 additional for a SFI unit) and will require hydraulic sortings and clutch/ pressure plate/ Flywheel. So you still have other costs to add to any T5. A factory Chevy WC T5 is the cheapest alternative to a T56, and will work in a moderate HP daily driver. Just understand that they will die a hard death under severe abuse with hard launches and drag radials.

 

Mike

[HarrisonTX]

With a price tag of $1700 for a TKO, i think im gonna go with a world class.

 

If i brake it, **** happens, ill just drive the malibu till i get it repaired.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/world-class-T-5-Manual-Transmission-Camaro-Firebird-T5_W0QQitemZ8014675338QQcategoryZ33733QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

Check that out.

So, do either of yall have some detailed links, or pictures about the t5 installation? The JTR book dosnt talk too much about it.

And the company Mcleod At http://www.mcleodind.com/

Offers Blowproofs for about $199, Altho on the site they are all $300+

I know a shop that has them at $200.

MY problem is which one to buy, and i know nothing about hyd. linkage, i have only used mechanical.

Any links or help there?

[wheelman]

Just get the bellhousing, clutch fork, pressure plate, clutch disk and slave cylinder that work for an 89 Camaro. You'll have to find a master cylinder thats 3/4" or larger in diameter to get enough movement from the slave, check into the Tilton unit. I used a Wilwood and had to cut the clutch pedal stop from the floor of my car to get enough travel. Have a local hydraulic shop build you a line to connect the master and slave.

 

Do you have the JTR manual? They do have some info on it. The tranny crossmember sold by JTR can be used along with the same GM tranny mount they show for the 700R4. I don't like the idea of bolting the crossmember to the floor so I used the Datsun unit and moved it back about 4-5 inches using hangers I made myself.

 

As for the speedo output of that tranny on ebay, you'll either need to replace your speedo with an electronic one, get an electronic to mechanical drive box or convert the tailshaft to provide a mechanical output. Mine had been converted by the PO so I used the JTR cable.

 

I had to cut the Datsun crossmember mounts out of my tunnel and widen it in other places to make it all work but beating it with a big hammer was rather cathartic for me.

 

BTW: I'd jump on that tranny if I was you. I looked for 3 months before I found mine on eBay and paid about $25.00 more than what that one was at when I looked. They are getting hard to find so grab it, but don't think you'll get it for $150.00. I got lucky with mine because the PO said it came from an 83 Camaro (which it had been swapped into) when it was really from an 89 TransAm. I had the guy send me the tag number and looked it up online before bidding. I was the only bidder and got it for $175.00.

 

Good Luck

Wheelman

[HarrisonTX]

Good info wheelman...

Are you sure i cant pull out that VSS electronic speedo and put in a gear? cause i really want to do that, the whole electronic to mechanical version box is one of the reasons i didnt want to do a t56, i got a really cheap mech. autometer mech. speedo.

 

I think i just may have an 89 camaro bellhousing or 2 laying around.

I cant wait for over drive, top loader trannies are the cats meow.

I shifted my buddies 5.0 mustang, amazing, it sure isnt like my 4 speed

 

They always laugh at me when they put it in 5th when im in the car

[BrandonsZ]

IT may not be as much fun to think about but after doing the full monty from scratch on my '72 if I was to do it again, I'd DEFINATELY pull the drivetrain from another car especially sice you can get one engine, wiring, computer and tranny complete with less than 50k for less than 2g. Then all you have to do is pull the fuel injection/smog nonsence and put in a nice edelbrock carb . Or I guess you could mount the computer and deal with the harness.

 

Seriously though you could buy a salvage title car with a low mileage running drivetrane for less than the price of the engine and tranny seperately... of course you'd have a factory tranny and be limited to factory performance. This is what's I'd try next, if I had to do it again, but it would take a lot of work to make it look as nice as mine does, it's like a shinning jewel in a dirty box, but an OEM motor IMO (without the plastic covers) looks like a turd. But with a sleeper, who cares anyway. And that might give you a "factory" look under the hood that'd be cool too. There are several years of firebird/camero that have the T56 with LT1, or even T56 with LS1.

[wheelman]

HarrisonTX,

You can't just stuff a gear in it to convert from the VSS to mechanical. The reluctor for the VSS is on the tail shaft in place of the gear that drives the mechanical output. It can be converted by using the tail housing/shaft from a tranny with a mechanical output though, thats what was done to mine. You'll want to have a shop do the conversion for you.

 

Edit: Just went to look at the eBay ad again and noticed that the seller says it was removed because it was popping out of second gear. Looks like it will need a rebuild so take the opportunity to convert to mechanical speedo drive and have some improvements made. Either that or skip this one and get a TKO500 or TKO600.

 

Wheelman

[BrandonsZ]

HarrisonTX' date='

You can't just stuff a gear in it to convert from the VSS to mechanical. The reluctor for the VSS is on the tail shaft in place of the gear that drives the mechanical output. It can be converted by using the tail housing/shaft from a tranny with a mechanical output though, thats what was done to mine. You'll want to have a shop do the conversion for you.

 

Edit: Just went to look at the eBay ad again and noticed that the seller says it was removed because it was popping out of second gear. Looks like it will need a rebuild so take the opportunity to convert to mechanical speedo drive and have some improvements made. Either that or skip this one and get a TKO500 or TKO600.

 

Wheelman[/quote']

 

 

I have a electro-mechanical box that converts VSS to analog motion which then turns the original speedometer. I will be replacing that system with an aftermarket speedometer later. I would have just replaced it in the first place if I had it to do again.