Help: metal prep.

[Z0wner]

Alright... I finally have a job (lost job about 3 months ago) and I am able to start doing body work. I am a newbie when it comes to cars. I have searched for an answer with no avail, so here is my question.

 

I plan on taking the vehicle down to bare metal and I am not exactly sure of what to use to prevent rusting.

 

I have heard of using/doing the following:

 

a- Zero Rust *isn't this a primer type product?

b- Rust Bullet *I read about it on this forums, not sure though of what it is

c- Por 15 *I have read that this product has mixed results

d- PickleX 20 *Seen very little about this, but what I have seen is good

e- Just use some primer

 

Questions are:

--What generally the prices of these products?

--What is the real difference between these products?

--Where do I purchase these?

--What are your experiences with these products?

--What is going to be the best product for a new person (such as my self) to use?

--What is the usual quality of these products?

 

I know these questions seem stupid and numerous, and thats probably because they are. Its just that I am new, and I don't want to waste money or buy a product that is not going to work with my vehicle (1974 1/2 260Z)

 

Thank you for your time,

 

Z0wner

[steve72z]

I am not an expert but have some knowledge from hanging around a friends paint shop. He specializes in high end muscle car restorations. From what I have seen with cars taken down to bare metal you will need to go over the entire car with a mild acid product such as rust mort or similar. Use a green scouring pad after applying the acid to the body use moderate pressure to clean the surface. This will remove all oils and any surface rust that has started. Rinse the car extremely will with water and dry with compressed air immediatly. This will take some time to get everything completely dry. I have heard of some alkali products that can be used to deactivate the acid but I have never seen it used except in rinsing tanks. Next primer the metal with a high quality rust inhibiting primer. I believe my friend uses Valspar but I am not positive. Don't go cheap either you get what you pay for. Next I believe you should scuff the surface before doing applying any blocking primer. I am assuming any metal work has already been completed or will be prior to primering. One of the best products he uses is Valspar blocking primer 21N and the associated reducer and hardener. You can expect to pay over 100.00 per gallon for the primer, reducer, and hardener. but the primer is very thick and blocks well. The directions say not to use reducer but you will have to in order to thin it enough to get it out of the gun.

 

All products can be found at a good paint shop.

 

Again I am no professional so take the information for what its worth. Good luck.

[mom'sZ]

OK... I did paint and body work for 25 years. My suggestion to you, and you may not want to hear this, is to not strip the car to bare metal unless there is some really compelling reason to do so. I have seen more cars with adhesion problems because they stripped the car. In the process of stripping the car, it is very hard not to get some surface rust or other contamination on the steel. Once the car is stripped, it's very hard to get any kind of primer to stick to it. Why do you want to strip the car? If it's because you've heard that's the way to do the ultimate paint job, you were misled. If it's because there is a bad non-factory paint job on it, just sand it down until you hit the factory paint / primer.

[Z0wner]

This is probably bad logic, but here is the reason for going to bare metal

 

 

a- make sure I find all rust, though there are only a few spots with evidence on the vehicle I want to make sure this vehicle lasts for a while

 

b- What about welding on patches/ replacement panels etc.

 

How do you weld patch panels etc. if there is a layer of primer?

 

c- I'll be sand blasting the engine bay/interior of the vehicle. So i thought sanding the entire vehicle would keep things uniform.

 

I guess if this is not how I should be doing it. Then HOW should I do it? As of now, I have a vehicle that is almost completely dismantled. I am wanting to really start doing bodywork, but don't know what I need to do. Could you give me some pointers/directions? This is my first project vehicle and I have no knowledge of these things yet.

[mom'sZ]

In places where you need to do body work or weld metal patches you should take a grinder with 24 grit disc and grind it down to bare metal. Anywhere you need to weld has to be very clean before welding. On large flat areas the grinder will work well for this, but anywhere you can't get with a grinder you can sandblast. This is best done just prior to welding the patch. Anywhere you are going to apply body filler it is a good idea to grind it to bare metal as well. After you've welded a patch on, you need to clean up the welds with the grinder and sandblaster again before applying body filler.

When you get done with your body work, smooth the transition from the bare metal to painted surface with a sander. This is called feather edging. Apply primer/surfacer to the area, covering just the bodywork and feather edging. After the primer/surfacer has dried the bodywork can be block sanded.

If the car has never been painted and has a factory paint job on it, that factory paint job makes the perfect substrate (foundation) for a new paint job. If the car has been painted, you must decide if the paint that is on the car is sound enough to be painted over. If the paint job is peeling or flaking off or is bubbled, these types of things indicate it is not a sound paint job to paint over. In such cases it is best to sand down to the factory paint, but just in the effected areas. If many paint jobs have been done on the car and there is excessive build then it also should be sanded down to factory paint if possible.

Stripping the car with chemical stripper should only be done as a last resort. If you have to use a heavy grit sandpaper to remove bad paint work try to leave the factory paint or at least the factory primer intact and apply a good primer/surfacer to fill sanding scratches and cover any bare metal spots. As far as not being able to find all the rust, don't worry, you'll find it. Obviously how to do body work is not something that can be fully described in a forum post, hope these tips help. Seaarch the forum for more tips.

[rumblezzz]

check out this website

http://www.autobody101.com

use search feature

a ton of info on this site

[Z0wner]

I thought I would give you some pictures of the nasty spots on the vehicle, and the overall condition

 

Here is an overall view of the vehicle *sorry about the lighting

 

 

Here is a picture of the driver side

 

 

Interior Front firewall

 

 

As you can see, a few holes *floor pan

 

 

Here is an interior view of the back

 

 

A picture of a bad spot on windshield

 

 

Here is the cowl

 

 

Passenger underside near wheel well

 

 

Nasty dent on roof

 

 

Passenger side window *small triangular one

 

 

Battery Tray

 

 

Driver side wheel well

 

 

SORRY 56Kers

 

As you can tell, there is a non factory coat on the vehicle. I started sanding a fender and it had these layers top to bottom: GREEN, WHITE(PRIMER), BRONZE, DARK GREY(OVERCOAT?), LIGHT GREY(ORIGINAL PRIMER), STEEL. Anyway, these spots in the pictures are (hopefully) the worst I have to deal with. Only time will tell, but I don't think its that bad... I was able to pick the vehicle up for 600.00 USD running

 

I will browse that website rumblezzz, and thank you for the tips mom'sZ. I may reconsider going to bare metal. If I can think of any more questions, can I give you a PM?

[Jolane]

Wow, that is a lot of work. Where is the car from?

 

I bought a rear deck from the the local JY. When I stripped it is had no less than 12 coats of paint! It was flaking up in spots and was nearly 1/16" thick! What a pain it was to strip too.

 

I will be following this thread. I am also interested in proper paint procedures. I am at bare metal now though. The car only had stock paint that needed serious help. It would not have a good base coat.

 

Joshua

[Z0wner]

This car is from... well, as I was told

 

 

Originally from AZ area, then purchased moved to chicago, IL area. It was used for a brief period of time and was then left in a garage. FOR 20 YEARS. Owner fired it up, had no use, and sold it to me. The condition isn't great by any means, but it is fair. SO far not anything too horrible.

[mikeatrpi]

You've got your hands full, that's for sure.

 

On my ZX, I went down to factory primer except where there was damage / rust. I body worked each panel, using regular bondo, and then sprayed cheapie aerosol lacquer primer. BIG mistake- the primer was porous, and my bondo underneath got wet in the rain... I ended up having to redo sections of the car where rust returned. BIGGER mistake- in some places I used rustoleum primer... totally incompatible with my PPG primer... more work to re-do.

 

I fixed my mistakes, and I currently have the car entirely in waterproof epoxy primer. In the spring I'll shoot the color.

 

If I were to do it again, I'd:

1) sand down to factory primer except where there was damage

2) use a waterproof / fiberglass filler directly on metal

3) spray each panel with epoxy primer, instead of aerosol

4) do plastic (bondo) filler on top of the epoxy

5) spray more epoxy on top of the bondo to keep it watertight

6) use a high build primer on top of that, for guidecoat sanding.

7) color

 

Re price, I used a budget paint, PPG Omni, and spent $200 or so on materials.

 

You can see my saga here: http://z.modeltrainguide.com

 

I suspect you'll be using POR-15 or those other products you mentioned when you get into repairing the floor and subframe. You probably won't use it on the body restoration though.

[Oleh]

^ what brand is the epoxy primer ?

[Z0wner]

Yeah, I have a lot of work... And it kinda sucks being a highschool student. I want to try to keep up my GPA up for college scholarships. This is keeping me from working more than 25 hours a week at 6.00 an hour. I also, just... oh, about an hour ago, found out that my family is in a very tight situation. So everything for this project is going to have to be payed for by me and so it probably won't be done for a long while.

 

I probably shouldn't have purchased this vehicle. Oh well. I guess God's will be done.

 

---------------------------

But what I would like to do to the vehicle is fairly simple:

 

Strip vehicle/Body work

Bedliner underbody

Light charcoal paint for the vehicle

l28et engine (actually I would rather do a sbc, but money is an issue at this time)

 

nothing too much i guess

[Corzette]

Go to my site below and check it out. You may find somethings useful there. I had alot of rust too but yours doesnt seem to bad to me. If you have the right tools the metal work will be cake. i.e. cutting torch, mig, grinder, air tank etc...

[mikeatrpi]

^ what brand is the epoxy primer ?

 

PPG Omni MP-170 with MP-175 catalyst.

[Oleh]

^ thanks...

 

Z0wner - you live in the burbs or in the city ?

[Z0wner]

I don't live in chicago, vehicle came from there though...

 

I'm near bloomington/normal IL

[innerware]

I have used a primer that is made by evercoat. It is there featheredge primer and it is a two part polyester system. It is like 50 bucks a gallon and sprays and sands real well. It is two part and catalyzes so will block moisture. My paint guy likes it and so do I. Just thought I would share.

[Z0wner]

Update:

 

So, I wanted to see what was underneath the paint near the windshield.

 

I sanded the area down a to see what I had. Here is the result: I have patches like this across that area. Nothing HUGE, but all about 1-2 inch.

 

 

What would be the best way to get rid of this? How do I take care of this? Its bugging me because I have 4+ of these small things across the lip of the windshield on the hood.

 

Thanks,

 

Z0wner

[Oleh]

You could try grinding it off, but it could make the metal too thin.

[mom'sZ]

Best way to remove rust = sandblaster!

I've said this before... rust is very hard, steel is soft. Rust is brittle, steel is elastic. Take your body hammer, tap around the rust spot, not hard enough to bend the panel, but hard enough to cause it to flex a little, and the rust will pop out.

The only really good method for getting rid of rust on thin sheet metal body panels is to sandblast them. You can buy a gravity feed set up for a few bucks at the paint supply house. It makes a terrible mess though, do it outside. Search for sandblast, there has been a couple of recent threads on it.