Guest 73Turbo240z Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 thats great for at the turbo... but with the actuator having 2 reference points, presumed by myself to be on either side of the diaphram that moves, seems to me like it wouldn't work very well. as for at the turbo, the holsets have a boss tapped into the stock, so i suppose i could move my intake manifold reference down to there to give it a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted February 20, 2006 Share Posted February 20, 2006 *edit* weird... 240hoke and 2fiddyZ posted some threads.. I dont know where they went.. Austin I mean to empahsize the stock T3 has two sources, into one source on the wastegate.. the stock T3 would be a great cadidate for using a dual port wastegate since there are already two sources.. Anyway.. the wastegate actuator won't do much for preventing boost creep.. and like 2 fiddyZ was mentioning.. the best place to have the boost sources are- The end of the compressor housing Right before the throttle body or tap the manifold That will send the overall "average" between the two sources into the wastegate for effective boost control.. Best way to get rid of boost creep is - port the hell out of the wastegate opening.. and upgrade to a larger puck. Alot of guys also drill a small whole on the actual wastegate puck, to vent off extra pressure... so the air doesnt hit the puck and immediatly have to change direction causing resistance. With a hole drilled in the puck, the air will flow through the puck, minimizing resistance and interference drag. Interference drag = Parasite drag caused by the interference of airflow patterns around different parts (ie - wastagate puck) Ok I went ahead and did 3 MS PAINT pictures.. #1 - basic system of a turbo which everyone should know #2 - air flow as it hits the wastegate and example of Interference drag #3 - hole in the wastegate puck, notice the slight improvement of airflow and slight reduction in interference drag I'm trying my best to describe it.. let me know if I may be inconclusive.. or I might of mixed something up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 73Turbo240z Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 *edit* weird... 240hoke and 2fiddyZ posted some threads.. I dont know where they went.. Austin I mean to empahsize the stock T3 has two sources' date=' into one source on the wastegate.. the stock T3 would be a great cadidate for using a dual port wastegate since there are already two sources.. Anyway.. the wastegate actuator won't do much for preventing boost creep.. and like 2 fiddyZ was mentioning.. the best place to have the boost sources are- The end of the compressor housing Right before the throttle body or tap the manifold That will send the overall "average" between the two sources into the wastegate for effective boost control.. Best way to get rid of boost creep is - port the hell out of the wastegate opening.. and upgrade to a larger puck. Alot of guys also drill a small whole on the actual wastegate puck, to vent off extra pressure... so the air doesnt hit the puck and immediatly have to change direction causing resistance. With a hole drilled in the puck, the air will flow through the puck, minimizing resistance and interference drag. Interference drag = Parasite drag caused by the interference of airflow patterns around different parts (ie - wastagate puck) Ok I went ahead and did 3 MS PAINT pictures.. #1 - basic system of a turbo which everyone should know #2 - air flow as it hits the wastegate and example of Interference drag #3 - hole in the wastegate puck, notice the slight improvement of airflow and slight reduction in interference drag I'm trying my best to describe it.. let me know if I may be inconclusive.. or I might of mixed something up[/quote'] I see what your saying, but a counter point to that is that if someone was to do this, that they would also lose a certain amount of boost response on account of the fact there is now always a open area that boost bypasses. And beyond that, it's generally thought (or i was under the impression that) if you have leading edges in an airstream that the leading edges become superheated and worn faster, encouraging cracks, seperations, etc... Which is why running with a wastegate puck cracked open to balance out a boost issue is a good way to destroy your exhaust housing (once again, or so i wasn up the impression there of) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 your 100% correct... the boost control will lack without a doubt, and the boost creep will be reduced.. However, yes it will crack over time... I doubt the housing will be affected.. they are made of cast iron aren't they? they will hold up to alot.. the air as it passes over the leading edges won't superheat or anything, but the intense heat from the exhuast will heat and crack the narrow, weakend puck. there is a downside to almost everything... but it would reduce creep wouldnt it? just go external.. it'll be worth it in the long run Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake culp Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Might be a bit off topic, but if you do decide to go external, i know you said you didnt...but still, if you changed your mind vinny z had a really good idea that it is pretty simple to copy if you can weld. The idea is you buy two t3 flanges and a piece of three inch wide 3/8 inch steele from any hardware store. Then you bend the steel into a box that copys the shape of the exhaust port from your flanges, basically you make a three inch spacer, cut a hole in the bottom for your external wastegate pipe, weld in your pipe and then bolt it all together. I wasnt really confident in welding to the cast iron so this solves that problem for me. I made one in a couple hours but i havnt tried it out yet because i broke off a stud in the manifold and now its in the machine shop, argh. Search around here and you can find vinny's spacer he made, i think me machined his out of a solid piece of metal. His is pretty impressive, but the one i built should work just as well, just not as pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240hoke Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 okay I typed up a big post, which ill summarize. I ran a turbonetics internal gate wit ha 1.25" puck and ported out my t3 housing as big as i could with that puck ~1.125". Once This was done I no longer had boost creep, but my dual port actuator could no longer keep the flapper shut without a huge spring. I ended up with 11psi base with a tad bit of creep in high gears. When I went to 16psi there was no creep. I think this was due to my .82 a/r stg 5 wheel but im not sure. At anyrate going to a dual port actuator isnt gonna help you at all, in fact changing anything about the actuator isnt gonna help period. A dual port actuator will help you with spool up, but you have a flow issue. The idea behind a dual port actuator is that you put a boost reference to both sides of the diaphram. So that the boost pressure holds helps to hold it shut. When you reach the desired boost level your EBC can then bleed the pressure off the top of hte diaphram, opening it. This keep the flapper shut longer, a conventional actuator slowly opens until you reach the desired boost. Heres a little diagram i made to clarify: And in my opinion I dont know why you are so stuck on staying internal, I think you should reconsider. To get optimal performance out of an internally gated setup you need a good EBC, a large puck, a ported wastegate housing, a dual port wastegate actuator, and alot of time screwing with it -- after this is done you still dont have optimal results. I just bought all the stuff to switch over to external gate with 3" DP (tial 38mm with flanges, cast elbows for welded to exhaust manifold, 3" t3 transition block off, 1.5" dump tubing, 3" DP tubing, and V band clamps for my DP) The total came to jsut over 400 bucks. I think its a worth while investment. The Nissan Cast meterial seems to be very weldable from posts that I had read. I blew my last motor due to boost creep before I ported the housing. Jumped to 20+ psi before i knew it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 I blew my last motor due to boost creep before I ported the housing. Jumped to 20+ psi before i knew it! I know that feeling. Fun though. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Boost creep fixed. I took off the turbo housing and ported it too the max. It it no longer creeps at boost abover 12psi. At 7psi it slowly creeps to 12 psi between 5400rpms-6100rpms. I was never afraid of blowing my motor because I told my ecu to cut ignition at anything above 18psi. So if it hit it then I would basically run into a rev limiter. Because of the biger surface area and some slight leakage around the puck boost comes on a tad bit slower roughly 200rpms later. But still 12psi in 3rd gear by 3200rpms is good enough for me. On to my next problem. I just blew my tranny:fmad: . Time to fix that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 73Turbo240z Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 blew the turbo eh? thats not what we saw from the chase car :rofl: (old habits die hard.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Yeah I'm just so use to saying I blew my turbo that I just automatically type it. Well turbo and tranny both start with a t so close. BTW I first wrote turbo then I edited it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjo046 Posted March 2, 2006 Share Posted March 2, 2006 Hi! I see you have solved your problem and everything. Anywas, I bought one of those internal wastegates that oinojo reffered to. http://atpturbo.com/root/releases/release103105.htm Received it in the mail today. This thing is awesome compared to the stock one. Unfortunately I don't have my camera with me at the moment. The flapper has room to sving a full 90 degrees, so it is totally out of the way, thus not hindering flow. Furthermore, the puck is bigger, so one can port the wastegate hole even more. And of course the flow from the turbine itself is drastically improved. Just thought I'd recommend it to you. I would think it would make a huge improvement for you. With this thing available, there is no longer any need to go external before you start chasing REALLY high numbers. I for sure am glad I bought it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aarang Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Hey pjo046, what size is the flapper door on that internal W/G setup? I've been looking to get one of those for a different project, but can't seem to get any info on it. Thanks Aaron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjo046 Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 The diameter of the flapper is 33mm, compared to the 29mm stock one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big-phil Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Boost creep fixed. I took off the turbo housing and ported it too the max. . What do you mean ported it out? Are you talking about the "puck" seat? I've read the whole post and I'm trying to learn all the lingo, because I have the same problem. I set it at 12 and in 5th it wants to go to 16-17ish I set it at 14 and it wants to go to 18-20!!! I want to set it at 14-15 and I want it to stay there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 What do you mean ported it out? Are you talking about the "puck" seat? I've read the whole post and I'm trying to learn all the lingo, because I have the same problem. I set it at 12 and in 5th it wants to go to 16-17ish I set it at 14 and it wants to go to 18-20!!! I want to set it at 14-15 and I want it to stay there. He's talking about the hole that gets blocked by the flapper valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big-phil Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I just fattened my AFM. It is now PIG rich! So when it creeps on the highway I get almost no Ping. But I still want to port out the flapper hole? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 73Turbo240z Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 I just fattened my AFM. It is now PIG rich! So when it creeps on the highway I get almost no Ping. But I still want to port out the flapper hole? yes, because there is a difference between being tuned for no ping, and there still being the presence of boost creep... if you can have your car down for a day or 2, go ahead and do so, and pull your turbo, i'm going to pull mine out tommorow and report my wastegate hole, i'll take photos so you can see exactly what we are reffering too... also you have PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cody 82 ZXT Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Another thing about tuning for a rich mixture is that the exhaust gases are not are hot therfore not driving the turbine as much. Yes, it will work but, it's not exactly a fix for the proublem. More of a bandaid that sticks real good. I'm surprised that you guys are having such proublems with boost creep. How long are your vacuum lines to your wastegates? What size? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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