dr_hunt Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Ok, a buddy of mine had a 400sbc 2 bolt block with a 500 lift solid cam, camel hump heads, stock polished rods, trw 12.5's, stock crank, stock pump. Ran pretty good and was in his mud racer. So, he comes shopping at my place. Buys Dart Sportsman 2's ported and set up for roller cam, roller cam and pushrods. He buys roller lifters and other stuff and gets ready to build it. Upon taking his motor apart he finds that his cam was flat. No biggie, just swap it all out, clean the pan and let her rip. Well, gets it running and the oil pressure really isn't what it should be, about 40 psi hot running and about 20psi idling. Runs it for the whole last season and this season dropped the pan and installed a HV oil pump to bump the pressure up to about 60psi. He was just farting around playing today and flamed it out. The point of all of this rambling is that if it was built right the first time it'd still be together stomping butt. Ok, so let's take my 406 sbc, it's a dart block, steel crank, eagle rods, lunati pistons, comp roller, AFR 220 heads, stud girdle, victor E, B&B oil pan, runs about 80psi oil pressure hot. Been together for 5 years now and has been in a drag car continuously and has seen probably 200 miles of street cruising, all running alcohol. I've got $8K total in it and it's putting down 450rwhp at 8000 feet elevation all NA, no power adders. So, he had $2K in the upgraded heads, roller cam, lifters, pushrods, roller rockers, stud girdle, etc, this doesn't include the engine he had to begin with. Now, he's going to have to spend another 2K+ to fix it again and still have stock rods and cast crank in a 2 bolt block if it's still good. If not figure another 2K for another block, crank, rods, pistons and machine work to make it all happen. So, he'll end up with about $6K in it by the time he's done the second time and he could have built it for less the first time. Folks, it's like the thread on 10 seconds on racing junk. You can race junk, but for how long? Take your time, build it right the first time with quality and attention to assembly detail and it'll last you and be cheaper in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 great example, and wise words. i live by that saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lason Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 problem is, not a whole lot of people have $8k to dump into a motor at one time. I could race my "junk" motor as you put it and upgrade as I go but if I had money for a dart block, etc then sure that is the route I would have taken. For now, Ill stick to running junk motors on a realistic budget. But even junk motors can be built "right" using budget parts with realistic goals in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
5foot2 Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 problem is, not a whole lot of people have $8k to dump into a motor at one time. Right, 8k for a motor is not the norm, and laying it out like that kind of makes you sound like an *******. Hell I just build a 40x38 shop, maybe I'll start making fun of people bolting together their stuff in a one car garage. I also just picked up a nice tig welder. All you fools using mig or O/A are stupid and should really step up to the better welding proccess. High dollar parts are nice, but plenty of people can make good long lasting power with much less cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleMX Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 I think it's a good point. He's not saying you have to spend money to do it right, it's attention to detail. Like making sure your bearing clearances are right so you have good oil pressure. Do it right the first time and be done with it. Good point Dave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom'sZ Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 OK.... everybody back to you corners retract those claws Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted February 26, 2006 Author Share Posted February 26, 2006 It's not the money, just do it right. I went and looked at it today, it threw #2 rod up into the cam and lunched the cam. He said he had $2500 in the motor and $3000 in the upgrades last year, so that's $5500. For another grand, he could of had a steel crank and some good rods and balanced, then he probably wouldn't be in this predicament. Neither should anyone else. Stock cast cranks aren't going to handle 600HP, neither are stock 400sbc rods! The point is that he soaked $5.5K into a motor that wasn't going to make it in the first place. If you take offense, then your not seeing the forest through the trees. You can build what you want but if you want reliable HP that'll be there day in and day out you have to pay attention to details, especially the weak link parts and spend the money on what matters, not chrome dress up kits and braided lines IMO. Machine work isn't cheap, and isn't getting cheaper so its a waste of money IMO to be building a 600HP+ sbc on stock cast crank and rods, not to mention stock oil pump, turn it 7K rpm and expect it to live very long. That's the point and if you can't run with the big dogs then stay on the porch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-Z Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 If that were me, I think I would of tried to find a block with 4 bolt mains, But its not. Well I see both points but as always money is always a factor and sometimes these things happen (unfortunately). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 A stock SBC 400 4-bolt block is actually more failure prone than a 2-bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 A stock SBC 400 4-bolt block is actually more failure prone than a 2-bolt. Well, actually, I've seen 2 blocks with cracks, both were sprint car blocks back in the 80's that were well over 700HP. Actually, I'm done with production blocks myself. Invested too much money in machine work only to have a head bolt hole strip out or block crack in the cylinder webbing at the top of the block or other disasters that I've had happen. I started with dart blocks when the machine shop stripped a head bolt hole using studs, cause the moron running the torque wrench forgot to lower it from the previous setting of 90lbs to the 65 used on sbc's with alum heads. This required the installation of a key insert which ended up being crooked to the point a head gastket would go over the studs, so Edwards replaced it with a dart block for $500 more. After that I never went back to production blocks for my stuff and I have to admit it is a luxury. I never had the money to build what I build now, but now that corzette is supplying me with unlimited $$$$ (Ha-Ha) then it's no problem. Actually I have a sponsor and he ponies up basically whatever I need and I hope one of these days u all have the same opportunities that I have had to experience the best money can buy. My buddy just left, he's going to go with my last 4 bolt 400 block, bore it .030, buy some pistons, use the set of used Manley 6 inch rods that I just gave him, a used .630 lift solid roller cam I gave him that I know nothing about spec's, steel crank and put it back together. He figures about another $1500 or so, but that's if his heads aren't full of bent valves and a broken roller lifter or two, and me giving him a block, crank rods and cam. No I didn't give him all that for free, he's a diesel mechanic and he's going to install air ride under my peterbilt, paint the z (YEAH BABY!) before SEZ and fix some other diesel engines I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-Z Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 A stock SBC 400 4-bolt block is actually more failure prone than a 2-bolt. huh. did not now that. Not really a domestic engine type of guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lason Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 huh. did not now that. Not really a domestic engine type of guy. Yeah 400 blocks are notorious for extremely thin cylinder walls even on a standard bore. There are a few high nickle castings out there but IMO its just better to start off with a 4 bolt 350. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 The castings ending in 511 are 4 bolt blocks, the castings ending in 817 or 509 are the 2 bolt blocks with the 509 being the preferred supposedly high nickel content block. All 400 blocks should be sonic tested prior to use IMO. The extra displacement is a real asset if the proper cylinder heads are used to take advantage of the displacement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted February 27, 2006 Share Posted February 27, 2006 My .030 over 509 block would have been fine if: A) it hadn't had a sleeve in one cylinder I hadn't run it lean at WOT. Oh well, live and learn. If you're starting out on a 400, I think going with a Dart Sportsman block that's already machined for 4.125" bore is close enough to the price of an old 400 block and all the machine work needed. In my area, machine work is quite expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted February 27, 2006 Author Share Posted February 27, 2006 Your right pete, Boring and honing with deck plates $300, decking $200, align hone $150, installing deck plugs $75, cam bearings $75, R&R block clearancing for big rods $100, R&R block for head studs (read tap holes and no they don't take your word you already did it) $75, three washings $125(one before they work on it, one before cam bearings installed and one after., grind front of block for tru roller or gear drive $25. So, that adds up to about $1125 if my math is correct and you still have a stock block that you probably paid $300 to $500 for. Nothing wrong with that but if it needs cam tunnel bored add another $500 and then the lifter bores may not be true either compared to a dart block so add another $500 for that. There you have it, one new billet capped dart block already done and stronger, better than what you started with. Depends on what your building as far as HP, but IMO it's insurance. I can't tell you how many times I've had to disassemble the rotating assembly, clearance the block, wash it 2 more times and re-assemble it. Time is money, not to mention the aggravation factor. Just try using big rods on a stock stroke crank and you'll see what I mean, then try stuffing a 4 inch stroke crank in one and you'll wish you had a dart or world block that comes clearanced from the factory. I still want to do the raised cam block and go 4.125 stroke. Work that baby! I think that'd put the z into the 8's if I use some 18 degree heads, so I can swap smack with Jap tin!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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