Sub Frame connectors and 10 point cage.

[Guest Anonymous]

Jackal, I just purchased there 8 point cage but am not aware if they offer subframes. If they do please let me know & how much they'll set me back.

Glenn

[Guest iamjackal]

Buying the SW cage but should i also buy their sub frame supports.Do you guys think this will make the chasis strong enough to handle 500hp.What else have you guys done.

[Mikelly]

Chris C and I were discussing this very thing last night. Bigest thing I ever noticed in doing suspension mods over the years has been when installing sub-frame connectors. They lay the foundation for the rest of your fortication needs. Quite simply put, I would not install a cage without sub-frame connectors.

 

Mike Kelly

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[DennisK]

I checked out their web site and could not find sub-frame connectors, are they custom made? Or maybe a different category?

[pparaska]

Anybody have experience with the S&W 8 point in a Z? the first thing that comes to mind is can I keep the interior panels in the car (I want them in) and will it clear the arm rest on the door. I know I should call to find out but I'm looking for the consumer experience here.

[Mike kZ]

I have the S&W 8 point cage in my car:...http://members.tripod.com/~SnowSurfer/mikekz4.html. As you can see I set back the harness bar back about 3" so I could put my seats back all the way. I didn't use the door bars because they would need to be bent to clear the doors, and then you would still have to add a hinge setup to get in. The stock panels will fit.

[Guest Anonymous]

From what I understand NHRA rules say the door bar must be between your elbow and shoulder to be legal. My car was setup this way by the previous owner and the removable steering wheel makes entry/egress much easier (besides being an insurance benefit).

 

Scott

[Guest Anonymous]

Jackal,

 

The part# in question from S&W is not for subframe connectors, or at least how we think of them. They are two additional bars that essentially turn the 10pt cage into a 12 pt cage.

 

They tie the roll cage to the front subframe through the firewall and can be used to mount the struts eliminating the inner fender wells (I really, really like this idea! Some of you may recall my posts regarding the tube style front end - well this is it!).

 

As Mike Kelly and I discussed last night this is really not a problem area for the Z car as the front and rear subframes are already quite strong. The problem exists in the cabin of the vehicle. By installing the roll cage and subframe connectors such as Mike's and Pete's then welding it all together is were the great leaps in structural rigidiy come from. I was telling Mike that I talked with Terry Oxandale the other day via e-mail and he stated that he achieved the greatest amount of chassis stiffness by installing the subframe connectors (Mike and Pete again) then triangulating the strut towers and tying it all together. He said that he did not notice that much of a change after he installed his roll cage as the car was so strong from the previously mentioned mods.

 

I don't think Terry was trying to say that you don't need a roll cage, simply the other mods go a long way in strenghtening the car. I think it is still very important to have a cage in these rockets!

 

Chris

[Guest iamjackal]

Okay I had trouble finding the sub frame connectors but anyway just go in and click on Roll bars and Rollcages.Then at the top of the page click on accesories and at the very top there it sits part number 13-1350 $40.Mike you say the door bars wont work unless they are bent and hinged.then do you think it would work or not.What did it cost to have your cage welded up.I think if your planning on racing it you have to have it professionally installed right.

[Mike kZ]

I welded the cage myself. As for the door bars, they are supposed to be either sholder or elbow level(can't remember)coming off the hoop, then down to the floor by your feet. Well, there is no room between the seat and the door for the bar to pass at the standard hight. So you would have to bend the bar to clear the seat. This is with a stock Z seat, I don't know about other seats. As for the frame connectors, there is no kit for the Z, you have to make your own.

[Mikelly]

And to further touch on what Chris said...

 

Remember, every time you fortify one area, you move the displaced energy and stress out to the next weakest link.. If you install a super stiff suspension and sub-frames... your car will move the flex up and out towards the outer edges... Look at a poorly designed autocross car that has been run without sub frames and a cage.. You will notice stress wrinkles in the roof line sheet metal.. you will also notice stress wrinkles in the sheet metal in the quarter panels... Also, look at the stamp welds. If any of them seem to pucker, or have a gap (Especially around the TC Box and strut towers) then the car was pushed to hard without proper engineering and bracing..

 

Also Triangulate everything you can. The more braces added in the proper spots, the better. The guy that designed my cage taught me a lot about what to do to make the car stiff. Now to live with it on the street is another story. Hopping over door bars sux, but hinged door bars aren't acceptable to 99% of the true chassis engineers out there. BTW, my door bars bolt in, and I only use them when the car is gonna be on the track because they are a real pain in the a** to get over, but they do add stiffness to the package.

 

What I would recommend is getting the S&W kit, and their subframe kit, then adding to that, like pushing two tubes (one on each side) through the firewall and tieing it into the strut tower. I'd also come off the back hoop and tie into the boxes for the rear bumper struts... then X that pair of tubes in the rear. I'd also use a strut brace like the one Motorsport sells, so you can get access to the engine when you need to without breaking out the torch... that and the fact that it looks cool. Then back up front I would tie in one bar each from the front of the strut tower to the radiator core support at the front frame rail. I'd also run and X from one side of the front frame rail to the other...you have the room, might as well use it.

 

Mike

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[Guest Frank280z]

Where can I see S & Ws web page?

Frank

[Mike kZ]

Frank it's http://www.swracecars.com

[Dave]

S&W web page is www.swracecars.com

 

Dave...

[DennisK]

Dan-we need a stop watch!! Is that 2/10ths of a second diff or what?

[Rob]

This is probably a dumb question, but are the subframe connectors the rectangular pieces welded under the seat area inside the cockpit of Pete's ride?

 

Thanks!

[pparaska]

Yep. On my site, they are the 2"x3" rectangular tubes that run at floor level from behind the seat (attached to the unibody crossmember at the front diff mount location) to the firewall and T/C rod brackets under the hood. The page URL is: http://www.tidalwave.net/~pparaska/structuralmods.htm

[Guest Anonymous]

Has anyone used one of these cages on a 280? Their site only shows one for a 240, and when I asked them, they said they weren't sure if it would fit a 280 or not, that they hadn't tried it. Anyone?

[Mikelly]

Dew...

I'd bet large sums of money that fitment would not be an issue. There is very little difference in the lay out of the cockpit on the three model 1st generation Z cars. You might have to short the footer of the hoops to accomidate a rise in the floor pan or rise in the rear trunk area, but that consists of hacking off an inch or so of tubing at each end of the hoop... It will work.

 

Mike

 

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"I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!"

mjk

[72zcar]

Question: Ok, go my 72 out yesterday and was able to floor it twice at a roll of about 25 mph... this is a 91 goodwrench crate motor with shorty headers, edebrock intake and 600 edelbrock carb and msd, TH-350 tranny with a shift kit.

 

Gets rubber at a roll when it down shifts and then again when it shifts to second before I ran out of road. I'm sure this is mild for most of you guys but to me it seemed to pretty much haul ass

 

So the question is with this stock crate engine and the bolt on stuff am I going to twist the body or frame, should I install sub frame connectors and or roll bar? When it hits second with my foot plastered to the floor it seemed to ...hmm i think you could say groan a bit as the tires broke loose. Kinda souded like my dog when he is not getting the pizza crust fast enough