JMortensen Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 You gotta start cleaning your tubing before you weld it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Man... you could teach Volvo a few things about chassis reinforcement and safety :^) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 LOL... I swear I cleaned and beveled the ends.. I wiped it down with acetone too... nice fit... I didnt sand the middle where I tied into the sheet metal... But the sheet metal.. MY GOD!!!... What a pain in the ass.... Im getting better though... I started with a bead on the tubing at high current... It got penetration... then I followed along that bead with the current setting on LOW to stick it to the thin sheet metal.. the outside looks messy I know... but the inside is where I really spent my time laying down a nice bead... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 LOL... I swear I cleaned and beveled the ends.. I wiped it down with acetone too... nice fit... I didnt sand the middle where I tied into the sheet metal... But the sheet metal.. MY GOD!!!... What a pain in the ass.... Im getting better though... I started with a bead on the tubing at high current... It got penetration... then I followed along that bead with the current setting on LOW to stick it to the thin sheet metal.. the outside looks messy I know... but the inside is where I really spent my time laying down a nice bead... Just MHO, but I'd say clean it farther back on the ends. Use sandpaper or a wire wheel on an angle grinder. I've got this one piece of plate and I have to use a sanding flap disk to cut through the scale on it. When I first started to weld that stuff I was thinking "I cleaned it. WTF is going on here???" But I had not cut all the way through the mill scale though, and the welds looked really bird poopy. I'm sure that on the sheetmetal stuff it will make a big difference. That's such a large weld that you're doing there, and to try and do the whole thing through the scale is just not good. I don't think that weld needs a huge amount of strength because it is the tubing, the strut tower, and the frame rail that's providing the strength, the sheet metal is just along for the ride, but you can make it LOOK better. As far as the welder settings go I wouldn't go higher than the thinner of the base materials can handle. I'd go right to that point, but not beyond. On my Miller that's probably around 3.5 or 4 on the voltage. Then I'd start by welding to the tubing, and kind of "pull" the puddle into the sheet metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 4, 2006 Author Share Posted October 4, 2006 Sheet metal to .095gauge is a biatch... I had to use a higher setting initially to get good penetration into the tubing... then I used a much lower setting to adhere the built up bead to the sheetmetal... that seems the only way to do it... If I set it high enough to actually stick to the tubing it is way too high for the sheet metal to handle it... cleaning might help... but I have been using this technique all over the car.. even on metal that has been sanded clean... The wheelwell metal is among the thinnest on the car... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 4, 2006 Share Posted October 4, 2006 Don't know what to tell you, but I haven't had those problems when welding the thicker and thinner stuff. Like I said, I run the welder about as hot as the sheet will stand, I turn the wire speed down (don't think I mentioned that before), then I pull the pool into the sheet. If I had to guess I'd say that maybe your wire speed is too high if you can't get a lower heat setting to stick to the tube, or your heat is too high if you're burning the sheet. The only time I've had to do anything like you're describing is when I was welding sheet metal to sheet metal and there was big gap. Then I'd lay a bead on one side and the other and then fill the gap. I did that one a lot when I was stitch welding and when I was stitching the rusty cowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 5, 2006 Author Share Posted October 5, 2006 I have to replace my liner... I have been having wire feed problems at slower speeds... That might help... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boodlefoof Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I had always read that when welding dissimilar guage materials, you want to up the amperage to that suggested for the thicker material, then lay the puddle on the thicker section and push or pull it into the thinner stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 5, 2006 Share Posted October 5, 2006 I had always read that when welding dissimilar guage materials, you want to up the amperage to that suggested for the thicker material, then lay the puddle on the thicker section and push or pull it into the thinner stuff. Try that and see how it works out. It works if you have 3/16" and 1/8" stuff that you had to stick together, but when you're working with paper thin sheet metal and thicker stuff like .095" you're just going to blow holes in it IME. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boodlefoof Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 Ah well. The only time I have used the method is for joining things like 1/4'' to .065'' or larger. Yeah, with something more like 24ga. it would probably be a pain in the butt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 8, 2006 Author Share Posted October 8, 2006 I completed the front end reinforcement metalwork... I copied Jmortensen on this area... looks pretty well triangulated to me... Here is a profile shot of the front end reinforcement work... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 I'm pretty sure that is it for front end reinforcement... probably too much... Front end pics including my brackets for my removable strut tower triangle braces... This firewall bracket is supposed to have another triangle spreading the load downward out to the sides on the lower edge... but until I work out the Ford EDIS-8 ignition sytem I may have to scrap the lower triangle all together... A completed overview... ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 I Love the cage its so awesome. I have to ask though how much did it cost for all of whats been done so far like materials bender etc i plan on making a cage aswell and just might borrow/steal your design Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 Hehehe... I have often though of putting together a thread on what it takes to do something like this... as in tools, materials, and consumables... just guessing... I figure your in it at least $800 for steel... I was lucky.. there is a shop nearby that lets me puruse thier scraps by the pound... The various grinding and cutting condumables are prolly getting towards $200 That assumes you have a wide variety of tools for working metal... I went basement hunting and yardsale hopping and found an incredible variety... lt keeps the number of bit changes down to a minimum if you have multiples of every tool... Harbor Freight Tools for things I don't use much... I had a cage builder bend all the initial tubing... I have been doing the chassis work and cutting and fitting staight sections... I will take it back to him to complete the door bars and roof diagonal... He charged $500 for the initial bends and tubing... I have purchased 2 more sticks of tubing($200) and another stick will be supplied by the cage builder for the doorbars and such with labor adding $400 more... I am on the third tank of gas($200)... I have not used up a spool of wire yet... the big spools go forever... I have had to buy about $100 of welder parts... It is a 12 year old welder though... The cage was the least of this effort... The entire chassis was seam welded and reinforced apart from the cage... that was by far the hardest part of this project... not expensive just hard... You have to remove ALL of the seam sealer... ARGHHHH!!!! I have been working on this since May this year... It is now October... I have hundreds of hours invested... not to mention the 2 years of research on this project... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boodlefoof Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Dizzam! I'm sorry to say, but I think you're getting ripped off on some of those prices! With how much you've stated in labor costs, you could have bought your own tubing bender and still had some change left over. The JD2 Model 3 manual bender is a great bang for the buck at around $500 with one die set. If you buy the tubing through a mail order place like lefthanderchassis.com or colemanracing.com you can get it in 8' sections for around $20 each with pretty cheap shipping. That's how I bought the tubing for my spaceframe project. Total for metal came to around $400 after shipping. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to help save a buck if I can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 You are forgetting that there is a lot more steel than just the cage tubing.. there are 6 different types of tubing alone in my car... Rounds.... 3x1.5" DOM 0.95 wall @ $120 per stick (everything else) 2x1.5" DOM 1.20 wall @ $140 per stick (hoop, diagonal, rear stays) 1x1.0" MOLY 0.60 wall @ $150 per stick (removable strut braces) 1x1.0" ERW 0.80 wall @ $35 per stick (a few chassis reinforcement points) Box tubing.... one stick of 1"x3" 1.20 wall @ $60 per stick (subframe connectors) one stick of "1.5x1.5" 0.80 wall @ $50 per stick (fuel cell frame, seat frame) plate steel.... I pruchased a 24"x30" 14gauge plate @ $30 (chassis plates) I purchased a 24"x24" 3/16ths plate @ $40 (chassis plates, L-brackets) I purchased a 48"x48" 16guage plate @ $20 (strut boxing and doubler plates) I purchased a 24"x24" 20guage plate @ $10 (rust repair) Shapes... one stick of 14guage U-channel (3/4") @ $30 (sheet stiffeners) one stick of prepunched 14guage angle @ $30 (frame rails) various lengths of 1/8" flat stock and angle @ $50 total from Lowes... (whatevers) I have also purchased... a full sheet 4'x8' of 0.080 aluminum 2 sticks of 2"x3" 0.80 angle aluminum Not to mention the box of 7/16ths rod ends and the weld in threaded ends for the upper strut brace tubes... @ $150 for all... That is over $1000 in steel alone... by the time you add the aluminum and the rod ends I am into $1500!!!!! for materials alone.. Obviously I will not use all of this stock... but you have to buy complete sticks and sheets in many cases... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 Those prices, except for the plate/sheet, are way high. The good news is that your car should be plenty stiff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 9, 2006 Author Share Posted October 9, 2006 I need 12 more feet of the 0.60 wall 1"OD moly tubing... It could be in 2 x 6' lengths... this is for another project... Where can I find that online for less than the $150 per 20foot stick price I get locally... The plate sheet goes by the scrap pound from a local shop.. That is where I am getting lucky... Dillon Supply charges a premium for small orders of the race car tubing... I know I am getting ripped.. but I would have had to wait for other people to go in on a larger order to save a few bucks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted October 9, 2006 Share Posted October 9, 2006 http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=7337&step=4&showunits=inches It's .065 wall, but its $27 for 8'. 4130. They have DOM for $16.73 6' is $21.68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted October 10, 2006 Author Share Posted October 10, 2006 Ohh jeeeezus.... What a bargain... I knew Dillon was overcharging... but that is wayyyyyyy cheaper.... I'll order it to length as well...great!@!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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