Guest Anonymous Posted June 19, 2000 Share Posted June 19, 2000 I've decided that I'm willing to spend roughly $4000 on the engine (excluding accessories). My highest priorities are horsepower (torque is not as important) and weight. The engine will see some street use, but will mostly be run in race situations (autox and road racing... not drag). This engine here seems like a very good deal (asking them to swap in aluminum heads will probably bump up the price to about $4000). Any comments? http://www.speedomotive.com/chevy_383_sportsman.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 I'm in the same boat.... I've got a quote from an engine builder of about $4500 for a fairly nasty motor. Looking at the "ZZ5" crate and figuring I'll have to swap the dampner, water pump, and possibly add a distributor that $4500 is looking pretty plausible. Tomorrow they'll tell me what that same motor might cost with less HP and in a 350cube displacement... How much power exactly do you want to make? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 My power goals are kinda unknown at this point... so I'm going with a "the more the merrier" attitude.. which I know isn't true if the car becomes undrivable. But I'd like to make at least 400 HP. But with that engine I posted above, I'll be making WAY more than that and at a good price as well. So how much horsepower is that $4500 gonna get you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 My goals are Streetable, Unique, and Powerful, in that order. And since I haven't the skill to fab my own setback plates for a more unique motor... I'm going to use an LS-1 with a T-56 (from a 1999 Firebird). This should satisfy the streetable requirement, DEFINATELY satisfies the unique requirement, and probably satisfies the powerful requirement. It's about 320hp. I figure if I get bored with it (fat chance), I will go after some of the aftermarket mods that people do to their firebirds and camaros. There's always the option of a supercharger. That whole setup -- LS-1, T-56, computer and wiring -- will run me about $5000. Obviously this isn't a good choice for you race car builders, but I'll be driving around town in this thing alot, so I want decent gas mileage, great handling, and power when I want it. If I did any racing, it would be autocross. So I'll be concentrating on handling rather than insane amounts of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 20, 2000 Share Posted June 20, 2000 $4500 is supposed to get me about 460hp. Thsi would be with an Eagle stroker crank (383), Eagle rods, Edelbrock aluminum heads, water pump, Edelbrock intake (dual plane - I may go single), dampner, etc. etc. Not positive that includes a distributor. Oh yeah, J&E forged pistons too. Pretty much I was told they could build any HP level I desired - for a price. 4-6weeks shipping time. hrm! As for the LS-1. I considered that, I also considered the LT1 swap. However, to do either of those swaps requires fabrication and going where few have gone before. The LS-1 will probably need different headers, possibly custom, requires a particular T56 made just for the LS-1, and who knows what other issues. I'd also not be thrilled using the stock harness and it's ODBII crappola'. A good motor? Heck yes! An easy swap? Probably harder than I want to tackle at this time. Same goes for the LT1 only less so - I think the LT1 would be easier and I've at least seen one of these documented. In the end you'll have a really really cool car though and I sincerely hope that you document each step of the way so that others can duplicate your efforts. For that matter when I swap in whatever motor I get I'll try to document areas that maybe aren't as clear as they could be. Mike doesn't live too far from me so I'm hoping he might be interested in helping with that (grin). Dinner's on me Mike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Is an SBC the only option? Did you ever consider a Buick GN? Of course, if you must have a manual trans then it is not an option. Ironically, it has been proven that a manual trans slows down a GN. If it is an option, I believe for $4500 you could buy an entire drivetrain, have it freshened up, mild head porting, good turbo and injectors and have 425hp AT THE WHEELS, not at the flywheel like measured with the crate engines. My engine/turbo is bone stock and based on the performance I have already seen, I am projecting low-11s @ 100-high-teens. Derek Grubb from PA has a daily driver with big turbo and headwork and runs 10.5 @ 129. With the stock IRS, halfshafts and 6" slicks, he cuts mid-1.40s 60'. HOW DOES HE DO THAT? Just thought I would throw that out as an option. ------------------ Scottie 71 240GN-Z http://www.mindspring.com/~vscott911/gnz.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 Jim, I'd be glad to give a hand, bet I could even get Chris to ride up and help. Just make a decision and buy the motor... I sent you e-mail... Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 I think not worrying about torque is a BIG mistake. Lingenfelter covers this in his book on small block Chevy's and remember, he did colaborate on the Calloway SLedgehammer Vette and was successful in Nevada and on the SaltFlats in Utah. My guess is that Torque is more important than Hp and where the torque lies... get a nice broad torque curve instead of a peaky one. That was what my builder focused on since my goal is autocross, solo1 hill climbs and open road races like Nevada. mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 ZZ4 Crate motor is in my opinion the BANG for the buck. Let me explain why... $3295 for the motor complete with aluminum heads and intake, distributor, waterpump, balancer. All this and 355HP and 405Ft# torque. You can not beat that with the extras you get. All you need is a carb, alternator and starter, pulleys and a flywheel. Sure, you'd have to ditch the harmonic balancer, but overall this is an excellent package for the money. Check with Scrogg n'Dickie for the price and shipping. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted June 21, 2000 Share Posted June 21, 2000 What's really kick *** is that you can get the Fast burn heads on it and add the Hot Cam anc crank out 430 hp (I think?) The Fast Burn engine (ZZ4 woth the fast burn heads) is $3795 and puts out 385 hp at 5600 and 385 ft-lbs at 4000. Add the Hot Cam Kit ($175) and the power and torque go up. Granted, with boost on the V6, these number can be exceeded, but to get the low speed drivability with the turbo, alot of fancy stuff is needed, no? I have one turbo car (92 Eclipse GSX), and yes it's stock-ish. But it's real finnicky about combustion chamber cleanliness, heat soak of the intercooler, high octane fuel, low ambient temps, etc. I know all this is correctable with a complicated and expensive aftermarket set of boost controller, intercooler, etc., but I chose not to have that hassle in my Z. Maybe I've got it all wrong here and the GN stages are forgiving for these factors. Scottie, can you educate me? ------------------ Pete Paraska - 73 540Z - Marathon Z Project - pparaska@tidalwave.net">pparaska@tidalwave.net - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Whoa Mike!! Take a closer look at the ZZ4 for a moment. Check out the size of the dampner - it's too big if the JTR book is correct. Also look at the water pump - doh it's a SHORT water pump. JTR says use a long one... Lastly, the oil pan - I think it's for a Camaro and it looks like the Vette pan is the better option. So add about $300 to the ZZ4 motor I'd say. Still NOT a bad deal for what you get but the pistons kind of give me willys - I don't trust Hyper pistons but don't let my opinion sway anyone on this part. The ZZ5 or 383 Hot motor on the other hand looks much like the ZZ4. Those heads are a $1K upgrade that you get for aboout $500. Granted you've not got a set of heads to sell afterwards but.. This motor has the same pan, dampner, and water pump as the ZZ4. Depending on who's ad you read it may also NOT come with a distributor! IF this is the motor you're looking at do yourself a favor and confirm the distributor comes with the car. I added up what I figured a dampner, water pump, oil pan, and possibly a distributor would cost in order to help me make my decision. Heh, I'm still not 100% sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Well my new (rebuilt) motor is almost done. Parts are all purchased (8 rockers are on back order & we need to check for the proper pushrod length). Machine shop should be done assembling next week. I decided to pick up a good 350 4 bolt main long block at the u-pull-it junkyard for my new motor. I got the motor out of a mid 70's chevy truck. I made sure it was all original with no over-bore and by the amount of crude on it it was all original. I polished the rods, heat treated them (in my oven for 12 hours at 450) , & had them shot peened. I went with Trick Flow Twisted Wedge heads so I got there pistons to match. I had the assembly balanced. After alot of research & playing with Dyno 2000 on my computer I went with a roller Extreme Energy Cam from Comp Cams. It had a real flat torque curve but still gave alot of h.p. I'm running a Edlebrock Performer RPM intake with a carb because I can't afford f.i. My distributor has been recurved & I eliminated the module to run my MSD. The motor is receiving a full blueprinting & balancing. My rods & pistons weigh about 4lbs less total then another s.b.c. the machine shop is building. My goal for h.p. was 400 but soon grew to 450 and by going overkill on every thing I may have 475 with tons of torque to match (almost a flat curve from 2000 - 6000 on my computer). The cost for my motor will end up just over 4 grand. My pistons & rods (I think) are stronger than the G.M. crate motors. They use cast pistons, rods, & crank. According to the machine shop my weakest links are my crank & rods. Im not worried. I have no regrets with this build but If I had it to do over again the ZZ4 with fast burn heads looks real good & would be trouble free. It would cost less too and be less time consuming. I'm now wondering if my power difference is worth it. To me it is because I got to create it. Its unique (like me & my Z) and is exactly what I had in my mind for me. As for GM's crate motors I think the rods are the weakest link but they are good for 450 h.p. The rods, pistons, & crank should work great if you don't add NOS or boost. In my opinion the motor is the heart of the car. You do need to add the proper accesories (tranny, stall converter, gears, susp., brakes, ect...) to make it work correctly. Take your time deciding what engine is right for you. Take into account the rest of the car & how you intend to drive & enjoy it. Glenn By the way with the 4 grand price tag I picked out what I thought were the best parts (h.p. & quality) except for rods & crank. I didn't go with aftermarket rods or crank because I didn't think the expense was worth it. I've never heard or read about them failing without NOS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie-GNZ Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Pete, what a coincidence, I just got rid of a 91 GSX that was my daily driver because I needed a vehicle that could haul STUFF to the track. Tires, floor jack, tool box , some spares and the requisite cooler, if you know what I mean. Your comment about driveability is actually the opposite of what you think. Most GNers stick with the stock cam up to and beyond 450hp. You are generating HP from the ability to increase boost without detonation. It is not boost that kills turbo engines, but detonation. With no internal changes to the engine, when not on boost, it runs like grandpa's Buick and gets his mileage too. In the V-6 section, I posted a link to recipes to hop-up the GN in stages from stock, to 300hp, 350hp and 430hp. What is interesting to note is that up to 350hp, discounting a freer flowing exhaust system, not a single component was added to the engine. Just increase the octane, increase the fuel pressure and turn up the boost. For 430hp, a larger turbo, downpipe and increasing the fuel capacity with injectors and pump. My car has 3 "modes". Normal driving w/o boost, boost with a "street chip" requiring at least 93-octane and boost with a "race chip" requiring 108-octane. The 2 chips, because of the required octane, have different boost levels and timing curves. I do not have one yet, but there is a special chip that allows you to have up to 16 programs and with the roll of a thumbwheel, I can go from econo-car mode to a fire-breathing mode that matches my octane level when that Viper pulls up next to you at the light Now you know how a 600+hp GN can be driven on the street to the track with 93-octane, run 10s and drive home, w/ac Scottie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 Jim, In my above post, I believe I mention the fact that you will have to ditch the balancer... OK, so you spend an extra $150. If you run an electric fan the short waterpump is a non-issue, and the pan in my opinion would work fine. If not, then you need to add another $100. Oh well, now we add $250 to the $3295 price. Still one heck of a deal. Mike ------------------ "I will not be a spectator in the sport of life!" mjk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MYRON Posted June 22, 2000 Share Posted June 22, 2000 I was just offered 4000.00 cash for the motor in my car. My desktop dyno claims to be between 464 and 513hp. I do not have the flow #'s on my DartII's so I just entered all the specs and then just changed the type of heads and looked at the #'s... I have aprox 5400.00 invested and i am thinking about taking the guy up on it and buying an LS1 with t56 so i can cruise the highway more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Mike, didn't realize that the long water pump was only for the fan - doh! I think I'll go short then - grr! Haven't looked closely at the pan but it looks like most Chevy pans fit (shrug). Really, I'm not knocking the ZZ4 or 5 just pointing out areas where I had concerns... As for th erods and pisonts on the ZZ4 - whoa! Those puppies are PM rods - supposed to be as strong if not stronger than Chevies Pink rods. I'd take those over older stock rods any day of the week. Evals I've read on them say they work great - you just can't rebuild them very easily. However they're supposed to be cheap cheap so that's not a problem. As to pistons - they are NOT cast. They're not forged either - sort of in between with high silicone aluminum. They're more brittle than forged but much stronger than cast. Unless you get bad spark knock while running boost or spray they're supposed to last. They also can be run with pretty tight clearances. Still, I prefer forged pistons and I may see NOS or a blower later so.... The ZZ crate motors aren't bad but in my case since I think I can afford a little more it looks like I won't be using a crate motor.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 Hey Guys This cat is in San Antonio Tx. He is a pretty nice guy. He has all kinds of good late model goodies. http://www.hpsalvage.com/ ------------------ 74 260, sbc 350, 700r4, and a few little HP Mods.just gettin started good. www.speedtechcoatings.com [This message has been edited by takman57 (edited June 27, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danno74Z Posted June 28, 2000 Share Posted June 28, 2000 I purchased my LT1 engine and T56 from HP and both were in excellent shape. Mark (the owner) is a good guy and willing to help in any way. MHO Danno74Z Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLKMGK Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 Wow, a yard that not only caters to people doing swaps but does them themselves! They've got a decent WEB site too which is a plus. Selling the motor with all of the wiring and brackets is pretty cool too. I don't think I'm quite up for tackling a full-on EFI swap this time around but those guys sound like a good source. How are their prices? One yard I checked into for the T56 awhile back was fairly rude pricewise but very helpful otherwise. Anyone done the LS1 yet? Looking at their pictures I could hardly stop myself from drooling over that motor. Imagine people's surprise when you popped the hood on that sucker! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z-Dreamer Posted June 29, 2000 Share Posted June 29, 2000 I've got to admit, Turbo V6's are BAD! Here are a couple of sites that should spark some interest. www.drwtransmission.com/gnpage.htm www.conleyracing.com/cppmainframe.htm www.beaversprings.com/profile/dgrubb.html P.S. Scottie-GNZ you'll love these... ------------------ [This message has been edited by Z-Dreamer (edited June 28, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Z-Dreamer (edited June 28, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Z-Dreamer (edited June 28, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Z-Dreamer (edited June 28, 2000).] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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