Best Engine Management System for SR20DET?

[BRAAP]

Have you given any thought to WOLF EMS? I recently purchased a universal WOLF V500 system for my Supercharged V-8 Z project that I plan to run DIS. WOLF even offers plug and play systems for some vehicles as well.

I haven’t done much playing with it yet, but so far it is VERY impressive. The menus are very intuitive. For instance, lets say you want/need to work with a particular sensor for some reason. Just click on “configurations”, and “sensor setup”, wa la… No muddling through other menus to deal with a sensor setting or configuration buried elsewhere in the menus, (You Electromotive and Mega Squirt users know what I’m talking about). WOLF has its own diagnostics, several boost controls and trim adjustment’s etc. I have heard in casual conversation, (not from the dealer), that WOLF is close to being on par to MOTEC as far as performance, features, etc, but costing much less.

Also, for anyone wanting Sequential EFI and Distributorless Coil on Plug ignition control for their V-8, you already know there isn’t much in the way of 8 cylinder support. Mostly 4 cylinder and some 6 cylinder systems. WOLF V500 has 8 individual injector channels AND 8 individual ignition channels.

 

Currently the V500 is going for $1550 US dollars.

 

For what its worth, Ron Tyler, (a member here on Hybrid), is a WOLF EMS dealer and if I’m not mistaken, I think he mentioned elsewhere on the forum that he is offering a discount to Hybrid members and. You’d have to contact him at the address below for more info. If he sees this thread, maybe he’ll chime in…

 

ron@primeems.com

 

What really sold me on the WOLF set up is a friend of ours has a very nicely set up BMW E-30 M3 with a nicely built 2.5 BMW S14 four cylinder and he is currently running N/A with 750CC injectors controlled with a Wolf V4, (he plans to install his big turbo very soon hence the huge by large injectors), and his idle quality is crisper and more stable than it was with OE EFI, even with those huge 750CC injectors. Power delivery is seamless through all transitions and conditions and drivability is as pleasant and seamless as OE if not nicer.

 

 

Here is a short list of features as listed on the outside of the box my v500 came in..

 

FUEL;

High resolution 3D maps.

2048 points, 125 RPM steps.

Easy tuning modes.

0.0035mS Fine resolution.

8 full sequential outputs.

Smart, fault reporting drivers.

Drive 1-32 injectors.

Many Dynamic trims, (such as air or coolant temp, boost, pretty much anything you can think of).

 

 

IGNITION;

High resolution 3D maps.

2048 points, 125 RPM steps.

Easy tuning modes.

0.1 degree Fine resolution.

8 full sequential outputs.

Smart, fault reporting drivers.

Drive 1-8 ignition coil packs.

Many dynamic trims, (such as air or coolant temp, boost, pretty much anything you can think of).

 

 

CONTROL;

Dual memory system.

Power/Economy modes.

Wide-Band Air Fuel Ratio.

Closed Loop control.

Idle speed control.

Stepper motor driver.

Turbo Boost Control.

Turbo Timer support.

 

 

ENGINES;

Run engines up to 16 cylinders.

Full Rotary engine support.

Internal Map sensor to 30 PSI, (supports external MAP as well).

N/A, Turbo, Super Charged, N2O.

A wide range of direct plug in ECU’s are available as well as the universal stand alone.

 

 

AUXILARY I/O

Dedicated outputs:

Thermo fan, Fuel pump, boost control, Idle speed.

15+Aux inputs/Outputs:

VTEC/VVT, NOS, Shift lights, Water spray, Stepper motor, Emission control, Wheel speed and more…

 

 

SOFTWARE;

Latest 3D graphing.

Graphical Data logging.

Table Data logging.

Variable speed log playback.

On-screen dash boards.

Easy tuning and set up modes.

 

 

DASH BOARD;

Separate WOLF DASH V500:

Backlit graphics display.

Dash or window mount.

Live ECU tuning.

Moving graph data logging.

Dash board readouts.

Gauge readouts.

Security system.

 

 

SIZE;

Very compact:133mm x 104mm x 40mm, (5.23” x 4.09” x 1.57”)

 

Lightweight: only 500 grams, (1.10 lbs)

 

 

 

WOLF v500

http://wolfems.cart.net.au/details/635751.html

 

WOLF DASH;

http://wolfems.cart.net.au/details/632479.html

 

 

 

Here is a pic of the ECU and a few screens shots.

 

WOLF V500 next to a n OE ’78 280 ECU

 

 

 

 

Sensors screen..

 

 

 

 

Fuel modifiers screen…

 

 

 

 

Ignition modifiers screen…

 

[A. G. Olphart]

Someday (maybe soon?) I may have to consider EFI for the sake of mileage. One thing that I don't see listed with the WOLF is a cylinder by cylinder ping/knock retard. Is it hiding under another name?

 

Considering the damage detonation can do, seems like a necessity?

 

<>

[RTz]

One thing that I don't see listed with the WOLF is a cylinder by cylinder ping/knock retard. Is it hiding under another name?

 

No... not hiding. It doesn't exist. Not many systems contain that feature. The ones that do, are generally very limited. The problem is most (performance) engines are very noisy and make different noises under different circumstances. Generic knock systems will frequently 'overreact'.

 

The most elegant solution (I have found) is the J&S Safeguard. It interfaces beautifully with Wolf. Its 'smart' in that it listens only at predetermined times, loads, and RPM, so it knows WHICH cylinder is knocking with usable accuracy. It then has the ability to selectively trim the timing on a cylinder per cylinder basis, resulting in a quasi-custom timing map for each cylinder. Coupled with some of the best ignitors money can buy, makes for a sweet set-up. Its virtually an engine management system all on its own.

[JustinOlson]

So what kind of toothed trigger wheels will wolf work with? Would is happen to work with a 135 tooth flywheel trigger and a single cam sinc? Thats the factory setup on my audi 5 cylinder.

 

If not I would image it works with 60-2 trigger wheels.

 

Justin

[RTz]

So what kind of toothed trigger wheels will wolf work with?

 

Wolf is configurable for a LARGE number of trigger configurations... it has to be to support 'Plug N Play'.

 

Would is happen to work with a 135 tooth flywheel trigger and a single cam sinc? Thats the factory setup on my audi 5 cylinder.

 

I believe the technical answer is yes... However, I wouldn't run it that way. The cam sync. is only there for 'reference'. In other words, the actual timing comes from the crank sensor (when used in this mode, meaning Ref. + Sync.). If the Audi is anything like some Porches and BMW's, tooth erosion causes inconsistencies.

 

If not I would image it works with 60-2 trigger wheels.

 

It does... and another popular choice is the 36-1.

[A. G. Olphart]

No... not hiding. It doesn't exist. Not many systems contain that feature. The ones that do, are generally very limited. The problem is most (performance) engines are very noisy and make different noises under different circumstances. Generic knock systems will frequently 'overreact'.

 

The most elegant solution (I have found) is the J&S Safeguard. It interfaces beautifully with Wolf. Its 'smart' in that it listens only at predetermined times, loads, and RPM, so it knows WHICH cylinder is knocking with usable accuracy. It then has the ability to selectively trim the timing on a cylinder per cylinder basis, resulting in a quasi-custom timing map for each cylinder. Coupled with some of the best ignitors money can buy, makes for a sweet set-up. Its virtually an engine management system all on its own.

 

 

Thanks Ron. I had momentarily forgotten the knock sensor vs. ambient noise problem. I imagine my gear drive would preclude using even the J & S Safeguard system.

 

 

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[Hugh]

I was looking at the Wolf3D back in 2003 when I bought my Tec3. I decided to go with the Tec3 for a few reasons, but mainly because of the kick butt full ignition system that comes with it.

[RTz]

I imagine my gear drive would preclude using even the J & S Safeguard system.

 

*Maybe*.

 

My guess is that is a frequency range that the Safeguard is able to ignore. Thats really a qestion for John (J&S). If you find out, please let us know.

 

Here's a bit of trivia... I was talking to Ross Farnham (owner of SDS EFI) a few months ago... not one of his personal turbo vehicles uses a knock sensor. In his eyes, its a crutch... a band-aid for poor tuning. I'm not suggesting I entirely agree with him... but it is valid, to a point.

[RTz]

I decided to go with the Tec3 for a few reasons, but mainly because of the kick butt full ignition system that comes with it.

 

Hugh,

 

That is a debate all in itself. I have had good success with Electromotives ignition system. I'd use it again in a heartbeat. The problem with it simply that you're stuck with it. You have no choice but to use it... and, its not what I would call inexpensive.

 

Wolf, as you mentioned, doesn't come with an ignition system. However it can be either configured or adapted to work with almost anything under the sun, including CDI.

 

For $90, I built this COP ignition system, directly driven by Wolf...

.

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... and there are virtually endless alternative options as well.

[Hugh]

While that ignition is pretty sexy, I wouldn't call it coil on plug... as it has plug wires (albeit damn short ones!) Maybe coil per plug or something like that.

 

I understand not wanting to be strapped down to one ignition option, but thats the whole driving force behind Electromotive. They did the ignition first and then added the total engine control system. If you don't want an electromotive ignition, you sure as hell don't want their TEC.

 

However, I can't imagine why you would need something other than the Tec3 ignition. It works really well, and doesn't need upgrading in just about any reasonable case. It's like you're putting the Cadillac on from the get-go, and no stepping up from the little stuff that peters out when you're making sick horsepower.

 

I have to admit, I bought this computer with huge power in mind... like a 600rwhp 2.0 liter motor. You sure don't need all this to make 300hp. I did 300-350 with an SAFC on a stock SR ECU. If you're planning a huge investment and you want to do it all right piece by piece, don't skimp on engine management. You'll be upgrading later.

 

I'd still love to try out the Wolf sometime. I was dead set on it for like a year back in 2002.

[RTz]

While that ignition is pretty sexy, I wouldn't call it coil on plug... as it has plug wires (albeit damn short ones!) Maybe coil per plug or something like that.

 

Splitting hairs, methinks

 

However, I can't imagine why you would need something other than the Tec3 ignition.

 

There are people that would disagree.

 

Wolfs philosophy all along has been centered around flexibility... the guy that doesn't need a whiz-bang ignition system isn't forced into buying one, and the guy thats building the 'ultimate whatever' isn't stuck with wasted spark or inductive technology. Maybe a guy wants individual cylinder timing. Maybe a guy wants to 'grow' into the system because his budget won't go the whole route at once, so he starts with the stock distributor and over the years he can grow into better, etc, etc, etc.

 

Like I mentioned previously its an arguable topic. Both perogatives have merit. There is no right or wrong answer and, more importantly, there is no 'best'.

[Hugh]

Not splitting hairs... just that coil on plug means no plug wire by definition.

 

In a sense, we're both saying similar things here. I can see why many people may not want to drop the money on the ignition system.

[RTz]

I can see why many people may not want to drop the money on the ignition system.

 

If you think this is my point, you’re misunderstanding me. My opinion doesn’t soley revolve around 'cheaper' or 'lessor'.

 

The following is for clarification...

 

1) Electromotive makes a damn fine ignition. I have used it and would use it again... but its not the 'Best'. There’s no such thing. It doesn’t exist.

 

2) Its possible my $90 coil per plug system is better. Its also possible that it is not. If it is equivalent, I saved several hundred dollars.

 

3) There are many people that believe Capacitive Discharge (CD) is superior to inductive (Electromotive and every production car on the planet). There are many studies that allude to CD’s dominance. However, CD is also quite expensive, commonly $2000 to $4000.

 

4) The biggest limitation with wasted spark ignitions, like Electromotive, is the lack of ability to taylor the timing map for each cylinder. For a 600hp 2-Liter, this is a valuable feature.

 

5) Different combustion chambers favor different ignition types. What works well on a 2-valve bathtub chamber is not necessarily the best for a 4-valve pent-roof... or vice-versa.

 

6) These choices have the potential to be superior to Electromotive. Some cost more, some cost less.

 

In summary, my opinion is that its nice to be able to choose a system that fits your specific application and budget. This is my philosophy and Wolfs. Some systems are clearly better than others... but there is no 'Best'.

[A. G. Olphart]

I was talking to Ross Farnham (owner of SDS EFI) a few months ago... not one of his personal turbo vehicles uses a knock sensor. In his eyes, its a crutch... a band-aid for poor tuning. I'm not suggesting I entirely agree with him... but it is valid, to a point.

 

 

If a person tuned for one track, knew what he was doing the first time through, and always ran race gas (consistent quality/octane), then Ross's choice makes sense.

 

However, I'm all for crutches. If I ever set up EFI it will be a street car with hypereutectic pistons, I wont have a clue what I'm doing (first EFI), and gasoline quality will vary. I don't see how a one tune/setting will handle my handicap and the normal street car variables, hence the preference for knock sensor retard. (Idiot proof is good).

 

 

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[Hugh]

1) Electromotive makes a damn fine ignition. I have used it and would use it again... but its not the 'Best'. There’s no such thing. It doesn’t exist.

 

 

Didn't say it was the best. I said it was "kick butt"

 

2) Its possible my $90 coil per plug system is better. Its also possible that it is not. If it is equivalent, I saved several hundred dollars.

 

Sorry if I offended you with my comments on your ignition system. Like I said in my first post about it, it looks great. I hope it performs as well as it looks.

 

 

We're way off on a tangent here now, so I'll give this one a rest. I'm sure if we were sitting in the same room, this conversation would've been a lot clearer and friendly. I'm not so cynical, I just like discussing things.

[RTz]

I'm sure if we were sitting in the same room, this conversation would've been a lot clearer and friendly. I'm not so cynical, I just like discussing things.

 

No worries, Mate. I just got the feeling you were misunderstanding my intentions and I wanted to clarify them. Nothing more.

 

Have a Merry Christmas.

[Gollum]

Here's a bit of trivia... I was talking to Ross Farnham (owner of SDS EFI) a few months ago... not one of his personal turbo vehicles uses a knock sensor. In his eyes, its a crutch... a band-aid for poor tuning. I'm not suggesting I entirely agree with him... but it is valid, to a point.

 

Isn't EFI kinda as a whole one big fat crutch (in a sense, i'm just kinda throwing this out for thought). I mean really... if you just wanted consistent performance in ONE environment then you'd just run carbs. Bit wait, humidity just changed, well I guess I need a crutch that can sense the air density.

 

I'm not saying he's wrong, and I KNOW he knows a heck of a lot more about EFI than me. I'd just like to point out that the whole philosophy behind EFI in racing is that it can make up for changes on the fly via sensors. To me a well programmed knock sensor is just another tool for EFI to tell if your octane rating is off. Because if you're racing your tune probably IS that extreme.

[z-ya]

Ron,

 

I know you have posted about your $90 ignition system, but I can't seem to find any details. What did you use for coils and igniters. They look like GM truck coils, but what igniters?

[RTz]

I'm not saying he's wrong, and I KNOW he knows a heck of a lot more about EFI than me. I'd just like to point out that the whole philosophy behind EFI in racing is that it can make up for changes on the fly via sensors. To me a well programmed knock sensor is just another tool for EFI to tell if your octane rating is off. Because if you're racing your tune probably IS that extreme.

 

This is why I said its valid to a "point"

 

Its importance is arguable and largley dependant on the particular engine, its use, and circimstances.

[RTz]

I know you have posted about your $90 ignition system, but I can't seem to find any details. What did you use for coils and igniters. They look like GM truck coils, but what igniters?

 

Pete,

Coils, as you guessed are 2000 Chev. Suburban. Electrically the same as LS1 coils, just re-oreinted LT port. 'Dumb' ignitors are built in. Wolf directly drives them via 5v logic. They saturate in approx. 5.6 to 5.8 ms.