PICS! Break In Oil Analysis. What is Normal? HELP!

[v80z]

Well I am back together after the new oil pan/ old oil pump pickup catastrophe. Man I forgot how fun it was. I was having some clutch issues. This build included a new pressure plate. God I love SBC. new stock pressure plate $32.00 at Advance. Shifts so much better. Gotta get the valves adjusted got set out at .040" right now. Still the thing kicks. Only had about 2 drives totalling 30 mins or so and got 3 thumbs up from peopleon the road. I will post some new video soon. I hope to make Mike Kelly's Aug 12th event. Trying to figure gas mileage right now as I have no gas gauge. Guess I will carry an emergency jug. It rides very rough. The engine only runs right at WOT as it has a circle track cam. Looks like a 2 hour drive with no fuel gauge and no speedometer. HMMMMMM. Guess I need an MPH calculator. I did was and wax it today but even in the evening the wax was so warm it would not setup well. Guess I will knock it down again tomorow. Only those who have understand how you can catch normal street cars with just a burp of the throttle. It reminds me of the line in the movie JARHEAD.

 

Yea thow I walk through the valey of the shadow of death I fear no evil for I am the baddest MF in the valley. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Well maybe that is not exactly correct but it sure feels that way.

 

Well look for some vids in the coming weeks.

 

Joe

[jt1]

Joe, I wouldn't drive it much with the valves that loose. Lots of stuff bouncing around there, not much good can come of it.

 

BTW, machine shop called and said my block is ready, so I can start getting it put back together.

 

John

[grumpyvette]

I don,t know why, but theres ONLY little red (X)s and no pictures? anywhere in this thread

[Pop N Wood]

This is just an old post. Either the pics have been moved out of his gallery or the links got redirected in one of the many software reconfigurations.

[v80z]

Hey John

 

Thanks. I guess the hybrid gallery moved around some. Not worried about the pics.

 

Yeah I first have to clean the garage after the latest thrashing then I will bring it back in and get those valves done. They are locked down. Just a little loose. gotta get it warmed thoroughly then adjust them. I am sure I am like most people where the car is way down on the list of things I have to do. It is my hobby so it only occupies my spare time hence the long turn around times.

 

My cam cad says Valve Adjustment HOT .030 Intake and Exhaust. So I am not that far off.

[deja]

Glad to see you're up and running again. I read all your posts, did you ever figure out what the root cause of the bad bearings was?

[v80z]

deja

 

Stupid move on my part. I am really a noob on building motors. This is my first SBC and it was the 2nd assembly. I had built my racing l28 2 times but was a real amateur at that as well.

 

I went from a stocker oil pan to a 7 qt 8.5" deep pan and did not change the pickup. Took about 5 minutes of running to wipe the mains.

[grumpyvette]

the oil pick-up needs to be mounted between 3/8-1/2" from the oil pan floor.

small block oil pumps generally but not in all cases have 5/8" pickup tube dia. while BIG blocks generally but not in all cases have 3/4" pickup tube dia.

keep in mind that in many cases the big block pump can be bolted onto and used on the small block engine (a comon mod) and that you need to carefully check clearances on the oil pump,oil pump drive shaft to distributor length and pan to pickup clearances in all oil pump installations

 

braze the pick-up tube to the pump body so the pick up is 3/8" MINIMUM, 1/2" maximum from the oil pan floor and use a large lump of MODELING CLAY (every mechanic should have some its great for checking clearances)on the pickup then install the pan temp. with no gasket and remove to measure the thickness of the clay

your local arts/craft store sells it in 1 lb blocks I usually use brite blue or black but suit your self, a digital caliper or even a ruler will get you the thickness measurement your looking for)

 

http://store.yahoo.com/teacher-parent-store/modelingclay.html

 

http://www.guildcraftinc.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=102-500

 

once its correctly possitioned ,remove the bye pass spring and gears from the oil pump,and have the pick-up brazeD or welded to the pump body, then after it SLOWLY AIR cools (DON,T DROP IT IN WATER LET IT AIR COOL)replace the byepass spring and gears, lube the pump,with assembly lube on the gears, check the clearances, check clearances again! and install! just be damn sure its brazed or welded in the correct location as that 3/8"-1/2" is critical to good oil voluum feeding the pick-up

 

http://users.erols.com/jyavins/solder.htm

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faq_brazing_versus_soldering.html

 

http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/solderfaq.htm

 

silver soldering is basically lower temp brazeing , the soldering metal flows over the surface and into micro cracks in the surace of the other metal forming a almost unremoveable bond to the other metals surface it allows you to stick iron to steel or brass to steel, it works more or less like normal solder does on copper but at higher temps and has a much stronger grip in addition too working on iron and steel

I vastly prefer the 5 BOLT BBC style pumps with the 12 tooth gears and thier larger 3/4" pick-up VS the small 4 bolt pumps with thier 5/8" pick-ups and 7 tooth gears. the oil flow is both higher pressure at low rpms and smoother in pulse presure spread,no! you don,t need it on a non-race combo, or even on some race combos but its nice to have and I willingly will loose a few hp pumping oil for better engine lubracation

 

most comon question I get? "will a high volume oil pump help or hurt my engine?" followed by some guy saying

"If you're using a stock capacity pan, the high volume oil pump could actually suck out all the oil from the pan before it is drained back in, thus creating bad, bad problems"

absolutely proven false bye SMOKE YUNICK with HIGH SPEED PHOTOGRATPHY and CLEAR WINDOWS IN ROCKER COVERS AND OIL PANbut what can and does happen is the oil pump pickup can and does get mounted or moved too high or low in the oil pan,restricting access to the oil supply, sometimes the pickup comes loose or under hard acceleration or brakeing the oil in a non-baffled pan can rush away from the pickup under (G) forces, this is not pumping the pan dry, a baffled pan with a windage screen with the same oil supply volume would work perfectly

ok lets look at a few things, pressure is the result of a resistance to flow , no matter how much oil is put out by the oil pump there is almost no pressure unless there is a resistance to that oil flow and the main resistance is from oil trying to flow through the bearing surface clearances and once the pumps output pressure exceeds the engines ability to accept the oilflow at the max pressure the oil return system/bypass spring allows the oil circles back through the pump ,now the amount of oil flow necessary to reach the furthest parts in the engine from the oil pump does not go up in direct relation to rpm, but it instead increases with rpm at a steadly increaseing rate that increases faster than the engine rpm due to centrifugal force draining the oil from the rods as they swing faster and faster since energy increases with the square of the velocity the rate of oil use goes up quite a bit faster due to the greatly increased (G-FORCES) pulling oil from the rod bearings over 5000rpm going to 8000rpm than the rate of oil flow increases from 2000 rpm to 5000rpm (the same 3000rpm spread) and remember the often stated (10 lbs per 1000rpm)needs to be measured at the furthest rod and main bearing from the pump not at the pump itself, next lets look at the oil flow itself, you have about 5-6 quarts in an average small block now the valve covers never get and hold more than about 1/3 to 2/3 of a quart each even at 8000 rpm (high speed photography by SMOKEY YUNICK doing stock car engine research with clear plastic valve covers prove that from what Ive read) theres about 1 quart in the lifter gallery at max and theres about 1 quart in the filter and in the oil passages in the block, that leaves at least 2 quarts in the pan at all times and for those that want to tell me about oil wrapped around the crankshaft at high rpms try squirting oil on a spinning surface doing even 2000rpm (yes thats right its thrown off as fast as it hits by centrifugal force, yes its possiable for the crankshaft WITHOUT A WINDAGE SCREEN to keep acting like a propeler and pulling oil around with it in the crank case but thats what the wrap around style milodon type windage screen is designed to stop)the only way to run out of oil is to start with less than 4 quarts or to plug the oil return passages in the lifter gallery with sludge or gasket material! now add a good windage tray and a crank scrapper and almost all the oil is returned to the sump as it enters the area of the spinning crankshaft! forming a more or less endless supply to the oil pump, BTW almost all pro teams now use DRY SUMP SYSTEMS WITH POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT GERATOR PUMPS that are 3,4,or 5 stage pumps each section of which has more voluum than a standard voluum oil pump because its been found total oil control is necessary at high rpms to keep bearings cool and lubed

 

NOW I POSTED THIS BEFORE BUT IT NEEDs REPEATING

ok look at it this way,what your trying to do here is keep an pressureized oil film on the surface of all the bearings to lube and cool them and have enough oil spraying from the rod and main bearing clearances to lube the cam and cylinder walls/rings. now a standard pump does a good job up to 5000rpm and 400 hp but above 6000rpm and 400hp the bearings are under more stress and need more oilflow to cool and because the pressure on the bearings is greater you need higher pressures to maintain that oilfilm.lets look at the flow verus pressure curve. keep this in mind, good oil flow volume across the bearing surfaces to cool and luberacate them and to provide a boundry layer between the metal surfaces is more important than the pressure reached at all rpms. since oil is a liquid its non-compressable and flow will increase with rpm up to the point where the bypass circuit starts to re-route the excess flow at the point were the pressure exceeds the bypass spring pressure. but the voluum will be equal to the pumps sweep voluum times the rpm of the pump, since the high voluum pump has a sweep voluum 1.3-1.5 times the standard pump voluum it will push 1.3-1.5 times the voluum of oil up to the bypass cicuit cut in point,that means that since the engine bearings leakage rate increases faster as the rpms increase because the clearances don,t change but the bleed off rate does that the amount of oil and the pressure that it is under will increase faster and reach the bypass circuit pressure faster with the high voluum pump. the advantage here is that the metal parts MUST be floated on that oil film to keep the metal parts from touching/wearing and the more leakage points the oil flows by the less the voluum of oil thats available for each leakage point beyond it and as the oil heats up it becomes easier to push through the clearences.now as the rpms and cylinder preasures increase in your goal to add power the loads trying to squeeze that oil out of those clearances also increase. ALL mods that increase power either increase rpms,cylinder preasures or reduce friction or mechanical losses. there are many oil leakage points(100) in a standard chevy engine.

16 lifter to push rod points

16 pushrod to rocker arm points

32 lifter bores 16 x 2 ends

10 main bearing edges

9 cam bearing edges

16 rod bearing edges

2 distributor shaft leaks

1 distributor shaft to shim above the cam gear(some engines that have an oil pressure feed distributor shaft bearing.)

so the more oil voluum the better.chevy did an excelent job in the design but as the stresses increase the cooling voluum of the extra oil available from the larger pump helps to prevent lubracation delivery failure, do you need a better pump below 5000rpm or 400hp (hell no! at that level the stock pump works fine) above that level the extra oil will definitely helppossiable deficient oil flow and bearing cooling and a simple increase in pressure does not provide a big increase in voluum that may be necessary to keep that oil film in the correct places at the correct voluum at all times.the stock system was designed for a 265cid engine in a passenger car turning a max of about 6000 rpm but only haveing the stress of under 300hp transmitted to the bearings, Im sure the orriginal designers never thought that the sbc or bbc would someday be asked to on occasion hold up to 450-800hp and 6000-8000 rpm. nore did they forsee valve springs that placed sometimes as much as 500lbs and up loads on the lifters and the use of over 9 to 1 compression ratios in the original design so the oil voluums and pressures necessary to cool those valve springs and bearings at those stress levels were never taken into account for that either , the stock pump works but was never designed for the loads and rpms that a modern engine hotrodded to over 450hp sees

 

the standard volume pump gears are about 1.2" long the high volume pump gears are about 1.5 inches long (depends on manufacturer)

heres the discriptions right from chevy

 

12555884

SBC Oil Pump, High Pressure Z28/LT1. Production high-pressure oil pump with 1.20" gears.Will produce 60-70 psi oil pressure. Does not include screen. The pickup tube dia. is 5/8" for this pump.

62.17

 

14044872

SBC Oil Pump, High-Volume. This high-volume pump has1.50" long gears.It has approximately 25% more capacity than a production pump at standard pressure. Does not include screen.

 

and yes I comonly build small blocks useing bbc oil pumps like the ls7 pump, it has 1.3" gears but they are bigger in dia. and have 12 not 7 teethlike the small block pumps (many standard sbc pickups use 5/8" dia. pickups) (the ls7 pump is best used on 8qt-9qt road racing oilpans as the larger 3/4" pickup flows lots of oil for extreme high rpm engines with a multi baffled pan useing windage screens, scrappers and cut outs for extreme (G) loads where a dry sump can,t be used or cost makes you stick to a wet sump pan. these LS7 pumps dont fit most sbc oil pans so your stuck using the high volume sbc oil pump if your not using a true racing 8-9 qt style oil pan in some cases

 

since I just got an E-MAIL about what mods are necessary or at least a good idea when running a high volume oil pump, and concern over possiable extra gear wear caused by the slightly and I do mean slightly increased pressure on the gears, guys Im getting the idea here that most of you are not aware that your normally suppose to cut a .060 wide x .005-9 deep grouve in the lower band on the distributor houseing so that extra oil sprays constantly on the contact point between the cam and distributor gears and that a ARP style drive shaft with a steel collar to hold the dirveshaft alignment on true center is mandatory for long high rpm use. look at this picture the grouve is cut under the bottom (O)ring in the band just above the gear (look at the picture above, (BTW the pic shows a smaller grouve than ideal)) and in line with the gears so that oil sprays on the gear contact points at all times, this is a mod most old time racers know about and use, but Im getting the idea the new guys have not picked up on it! (those two bands form the side of an oil passage in the block and the distributor shaft seals that passage, cutting the grouve sends a spray of high pressure oil onto the contact point at all times, if you dont cut the grouve your relieing on returning zero pressure oil flowing down the rear lifter gallery drain holes to lube the gears

BTW the other way to do this is to grouve the block in the distributors lower band area as this keeps the location of the oil jet constant as the distributor is turned, for a full contact spray on the gears so I generally do BOTH

[grumpyvette]

btw

heres more OIL info

 

http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Oils1.html

 

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

 

http://www.unofficialbmw.com/all/misc/all_oilfaq.html

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

 

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/ar10180.htm

 

http://www.melling.com/support/bulletins/default.asp

 

http://www.melling.com/select/oil_pumps_gm_chevy_small_block.asp

[v80z]

Thanks Grump

 

I am a big fan of yours. All the info helps. Most applicable. Of course I bought the moroso sbc lv pump with the pickup already attached and set for 8.5 pan depth before I read you notes. I do use clay as I have had some instruction when checking piston to valve clearances. One thing that helped immensley was using a one piece pan gasket. No sealer and steel inserts around the screw holes.