schneider cams

[madkaw]

I've been reading the archives on the schneider cams and now I think I should have been reading these earlier -before I ordered my stage 2. My real concern is the supposed softness of the cam. My head is being finished at the shop as I speak, and i have a lot of money in this head. I bought the complete msa kit so all parts should be matched and the wipe pattern will be done correctly.

If there is a metallurgy question regarding the schneider billet , has anyone considered or done some cryogenic treating of the cam. For about 25$ you can get the cam treated which would increase hardness of the metal to get the most out of the cam.I thought I read somewhere that the only difference between schneider kits and some of the other CWC grinds that vendors sell is the fact that some vendors have there cams hardened.

I would also wonder that after the head was completely set up with the cam, and THEN the cam was sent out to be hardened if this would change the set up in anyway.

[gav240z]

I tried to look for the threads regarding the so called soft cam's from schneider. I wasn't able to find the threads, could you point me in the right direction?

Like you I have bought a schneider camkit for my Z, however I have read of many people using this camshaft with no problems.

 

Could people using the schnieder cam please give us some detail on your experiences?

 

Perhaps the cams tend to ware after hours of race conditions???

[madkaw]

Gav,

I have done most of my searching on Zcar.com. The arguement there is that the same springs rates are used on different cams . So basically the springs rates are too high for the cams causing undue wear. Also the cwc billet used is not as tough as original nissan billet, which is definetly believable. Thus my question of cryo treating. I am also looking for peoples experiences to back up this or deny this.

[JMortensen]

There have been a couple threads here from guys that have lost a lobe on a Schneider cam. Most recently Silent had a problem, the other one I can recall off the top of my head is Dan Baldwin.

 

I don't think the spring thing has anything to do with it, and I like Schneider's springs. They allow for lots of lift and don't have insanely high seat pressures, so they shouldn't be responsible for undue wear.

 

There was a thread here just a couple weeks ago that talked about zinc content and how that affects cam wear. Personally, I think it is a metallurgy issue and not an oil issue. I've been running Chevron DELO 15W-40 (which apparently has NO zinc) for a long time and never had a cam problem. Most of my friends who race run the same oil. None of us has had a cam problem.

 

Would cryo treating help? Can't say. I don't think it's really worth the investment to find out when there are so many other cam manufacturers out there who are not garnering a reputation on the internet for soft cams. Regrinds generally run about $65 and if you start with a factory cam the metallurgy question is removed, so why bother paying 3x that amount for a suspect cam?

 

Also, Schneider's stages 1, 2, and 3 are ridiculously small IMO. The stage 3 is about the biggest you want to run with stock FI (which sucks), and that IMO is why they made it the stage 3. To make guys with FI think they've really stepped up. If you're running carbs or programmable FI the stage 4 should be really the first cam you consider from Schneider. Stage 5 is a bit much for most people to drive on the street.

[Dragonfly]

I have the Schnieder cam in my car (came from Motorsports) and have not had any problems with it. This picture was taken after about 5000 miles of hard driving and racing (6400 rpm shift points).

 

The cryo that you are talking about will not make the cam any harder, what it does is align the molicules in the metal which increases the longevity of the part. I agree that the alloy of the metal used to make the stock Nissan cam versus the Schnieder cam is different but a company that has been around as long as Schnieder and has the reputation they have did not get that way making parts that don't work as advertised. In a nutshell there is nothing wrong with the cams metelurgy and as long as you follow break in procedures you should not have any problems. If you are to worried you can just get a different cam or do a video documentation of your install and break in to use as evidence for any future issues.

 

Dragonfly

[madkaw]

Jon,

I value yours and other experienced views on this. I have already purchased the kit so I am in for the long haul so getting another cam would not be good solution for me now. If cryo would improve what I have for 25$ i think it would be worth it although I realize this would be hard to prove. As far as cam profile I have read many of your posts and maybe i will be disappointed by my choice but for a street car, that I will race very little, but will be modified, I think it will be a good comprimise. I guess if the cam is too much of a dud I can have a stock cam reground and kill both issues at once. Maybe I read too much from these sites and always question if i am doing the right thing, I guess should stick with what i have and go from there.

[JMortensen]

I hear you madkaw. Good luck with the cam, I hope it works out for you.

 

I'm not going to say you're wrong about Schneider cams Dragonfly, but the idea that they're good because everyone else uses them is bad logic.

 

The whole thing reminds me of Fel-Pro gaskets. When I first got on the internet looking for Z stuff back in the late 90s, it seemed like EVERYONE was saying "You HAVE to use Fel-Pro" and also saying "L6's are NOTORIOUS for bad head-gaskets". I was a bit confused, because I had never had a headgasket problem, and I had never used Fel-Pro gasket. Coincidence???

 

Similarly, you see a lot of people saying "You HAVE to use new rockers when you install a cam" or "It's the lube" or whatever. I think we've got the same situation as Fel-Pro. I think Schneider is selling so many Datsun cams because of their connection to MSA. If they weren't in that catalog, then I think you'd find the general opinion of L6 cams and rockers is that they're bulletproof.

 

I've run the same set of rockers on 3 cams in my engine now (stock, regrind, and another regrind), never resurfaced, never replaced the rockers. Just set the lash pads right and that was it. I've got friends running maybe another 10 or 12 reground cams, none of them ever replaced or resurfaced the rockers. None has had a cam failure, and at least 6 of those cams were raced on at autox and track days. We've seen bottom ends lose oil pressure and spun bearings, even a holed piston, but no cam issues at all.

[madkaw]

Dragonfly,

good advice,thanks. I will document the break in , incase there is any issues. Glad to hear you are happy with your cam set-up. I agree with you that schneider has been at this for a while so they should know something more then me .(doesn't take much for that)

I guess modifying engines invloves an infinite number of "what ifs"

[madkaw]

That's what I mean Jon, there is almost too much info on these sites. I read and read and sometimes I am more turned around then when I started. I rather have too much then not enough though. I believ i have a competent machinist helping me on this so I am hoping that getting everything set up correctly the first time will be my best bet in the whole scheme of things and then go from there. Being just an average mechanic doesn't help so i am always looking for good advice but that can be very different on a given day

[Dragonfly]

Jon you are correct in saying that just because everyone else uses it doesn't make it good (not a quote, only my interpitation), that goes for anything. I have used in my car a custom ground cam by Crower, reground stock cam, and this Schnieder that is in it now, I have not had any problems with any of them, I just move up in agressiveness in small steps. Any way back to the point, I am sure that you are right about them only having our cams because Motorsport has a contract of some sort with them and they probably would not even make a cam for L series engines otherwise.

 

Now that I am thinking more about it my mind is sending me off on a tangent here. When I was younger Schnieder and Lunati were the cams to have but these things were always built for pushrod engines, it could stand to reason that the metallurgy from pushrod to overhead would be different and maybe they never saw any need to change what has always worked for them. I am defending them because I have that cam and have not had a problem with it... but if I do have any problems I can assure you I would find out if it were a problem with the cam or something else then I would let everyone know.

[proxlamus©]

I just shipped a Scheider Stage I cam to Ted.. and the piece of crap broke in half during the shipment.. maybe that accounts for it being soft?

[Pyro]

Engine oil has been reformulated over the past few years. They removed or reduced some of the antiwear additives that they demended bad for the environment. This reformulation didn't effect cam wear on stock engines due to mild cams and light valve springs. Wear problems started to occur when this new oil was used with high lift cams and heavy valve springs. The good news is that diesel engine oil still has all the antiwear additives in the oil. So, use diesel engine oil with your new cam for some extra protection.

 

Go to compcams web site and check out their tech section on cam install. They talk about this problem and also recommend diesel engine oil.

[madkaw]

Pyro,

looked for that article and couldn't find it?

[preith]

There have been a couple threads here from guys that have lost a lobe on a Schneider cam. Most recently Silent had a problem' date=' the other one I can recall off the top of my head is Dan Baldwin.

 

I don't think the spring thing has anything to do with it, and I like Schneider's springs. They allow for lots of lift and don't have insanely high seat pressures, so they shouldn't be responsible for undue wear.

 

There was a thread here just a couple weeks ago that talked about zinc content and how that affects cam wear. Personally, I think it is a metallurgy issue and not an oil issue. I've been running Chevron DELO 15W-40 (which apparently has NO zinc) for a long time and never had a cam problem. Most of my friends who race run the same oil. None of us has had a cam problem.

 

[/quote']

I've been meaning to post something to this effect as well. I have the Schneider .560 lift cam on my road racer. I ran it for about 20hrs of actual road racing last year, shifts at 7k plus, on Royal Purpule 20W50 (no zinc either), with ZER0 problems. I did not use a spray bar either, only the internal passages.

 

Since then I've heard so many horror stories and figured I was perhaps tempting luck too much so I decided to switch to Valvoline's Racing oil (with zinc) and install a spray bar, as recommended by Paul Ruschman.

[Pyro]

Here is a copy and paste from CompCams website.

 

COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive Extends Engine Life

New COMP Cams® break-in lubricant provides missing additives no longer found in current motor oils

 

Time marches on... and generally that’s a good thing. But unfortunately, over time, some of the good stuff can get left behind. COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive brings back the good stuff, delivering a specially engineered blend of extreme pressure break-in additives that have been removed from current off-the-shelf motor oils. Delivering added protection during the break-in process and beyond for all engine components, including the camshaft and lifters, COMP Cams® Engine Break-in Oil Additive is compatible with any petroleum, synthetic or blended motor oil.

 

COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive extends the durability of internal engine components, protecting against premature camshaft, lifter and valve train failure. Best of all, COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive has proven to deliver long term benefits with new or rebuilt engines through continued usage. Simply pour in a bottle for initial break-in, run the engine for approximately 1,000 miles, drain the system thoroughly and then refill with clean oil and another bottle of COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive at each oil change. For more information about the COMP Cams® Engine Break-In Oil Additive or any other COMP Cams® product, call us at 1-800-999-0853, or visit us online at http://www.compcams.com.

 

 

#225 TECH BULLETIN: Flat Tappet Camshafts

Recent changes in oil and engine technology are likely the cause of premature camshaft failure; here’s what you can do to protect your engine! Premature flat tappet camshaft failure has been an issue of late and not just with one brand or type of camshaft. In almost every case, the hardness or the taper of the cam lobe is suspected, yet most of the time that is not the problem. This growing trend is due to factors that are unrelated to camshaft manufacture or quality. Changes in today`s oil products and “advanced†internal engine design have contributed to a harsher environment for the camshaft and a potential for failure during break-in. But there are several things you can do to turn the tide on this discouraging trend.

 

Proper Camshaft Set-Up & Break-In

Proper flat tappet camshaft set-up and break-in, as any engine builder knows, are keys to how long a camshaft will last, both short and long term. Making certain that the camshaft and lifters are properly lubricated will guarantee that the camshaft and lifters are protected during the critical initial start-up of your newly-built engine. COMP Cams® offers the right product for this job (Part #154), and it is available in several different size containers for engine builder convenience. To further enhance this “relationship,†we strongly recommend the use of COMP Cams® Camshaft Break-In Oil Additive (Part #159) during the break-in. While this additive was originally developed specifically for break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required to remove from off-the-shelf oil. These specialized COMP Cams® lubricants are the best “insurance policy†you can buy and the first step to avoiding durability problems with your new flat tappet camshaft.

 

Adequate Lubrication

Another major factor in the increase of flat tappet camshaft failure is your favorite brand of engine oil. Simply put, today’s engine oil is just not the same as it used to be, thanks to ever tightening environmental regulations. The EPA has done a great job in reducing emissions and the effects of some of the ingredients found in traditional oils; however these changes to the oil have only made life tougher on your camshaft. The lubricity of the oil and specifically the reduction of important additives such as zinc and manganese, which help break-in and overall camshaft life, have been drastically reduced. In terms of oil selection, we recommend Shell Rotella T oil for the break-in procedure. Most often used in diesel engine applications, this higher lubricity oil works in gasoline engines as well.

[madkaw]

thanks for the post pyro:-)

[JMortensen]

Well if this Schneider issue were a recent thing, then I guess that would apply. Doesn't seem to me that all of the failures that I've heard about have been recent.

[Zmanco]

For about 25$ you can get the cam treated which would increase hardness of the metal to get the most out of the cam.

I am very suspicious of these claims. The cryogenic processes I have seen advertised for this slowly reduce the temperature, hold it for some period of time (hours, or maybe a day) and then slowly bring it back up to room temp. This by itself is NOT going to improve hardness of the metal. The lower the temperature of a substance, the LESS mobile the atoms/molecules become. This is not going to cause them to align, or otherwise become harder. It will llighten your wallet.

 

I have yet to see any experiments subjected to peer review and/or reproduced by those without a financial interest in the process that support the claims. All I have seen are stories that are "one offs" i.e. I have friend who did this to his cam, and since he didn't have any problems, that proves it works.

 

To Jon's point earlier, save your money. That's my $.02.

[madkaw]

I don't doubt the science of cryo treating, i think it is a science and legit process,there is much info on this ----

 

 

Why Cryogenic Tempering is Important Possibly the most important restriction to industrial productivity is metallic parts wear. Tool bits, punch dies, and bearing surfaces are all subject to wear under normal use conditions. The cost and downtime associated with parts replcement has limited the speed of production equipment since the beginning of the industrial age. Proper cryogenic tempering offers impressive gains in terms of tool and component life. Increases of 400% in number of operations before resharpening are not uncommon, and claims go beyond 25 TIMES the normal tool life in some applications (Frozen Gears). Cryogenic treatment has also found favorable results in auto racing, sporting goods (golf balls that fly farther!), and firearms manufacturing. In short, there is little doubt about the effectiveness of the process in enhancing wear- and fatigue-resistance. Questions remain however, as to what actual structural changes take place during the cryogenic process.

 

I will contact web cams and see if they actually use this process with their cams.Good subject for debate though!

[Zmanco]

Steve, are there any references that support the claims from independant sources without financial interests in the process that you can point me towards? I've heard and read of the benefits of increased parts durability before, but they always read, at least to me, just like the claims for the miracle widgets that automatically give you 25% better fuel economy in your engine, or the widgets that give your cell phone antenna greater range just by applying their sticker to the battery.

 

Not trying to start an arguement with you as I know quite a few people who believe in these processes. Just trying to learn more about the sources of the claims.