E85--try it, you'll like it!

[Pop N Wood]

The problem with MTBE is it leaks out of the gas tanks and pollutes the ground water. I think they have banned it's use in most states.

 

The ethonal blend is a regional requirement for emissions. And there is a huge difference between 10% ethanol and 85% ethanol.

 

I had a Ford Fiesta that dropped 5 mpg every time I filled it with 10% ethanol. Did it as predictably as the tides. They called it gasohol back then.

 

Oil companies don't mind you buying ethanol blends. You are still buying it from them. So they get money from the government to put it in their gas and money from you when you fill your tank. Saves them from buying oil from someone else. What's not to like?

 

Get rid of the SUV.

[boodlefoof]

I wonder if the reduction in fuel economy with the E85 would be countered if the engine were actually designed to take advantage of its higher octane rating. Thoughts? At 105 octane, you could do quite a bit differently with the compression, ignition timing, cam timing, boost...

 

Also, as I understand it ethanol burns more cleanly than does gasoline. If that is the case, we should all be happy to lose a little fuel economy.

[silicone boy]

Interesting question John. I'm not sure how you would optimize an engine for ethanol. Most of my life, I've been thinking of ways to decrease fuel mileage (i.e. make more power). I see the tremendous strides made in just the last few years in diesel technology and I'm sure we'll all benefit in the future. I think the things we do to improve engine technology will benefit us all, no matter what fuel we burn. I mean, I've been like Rip van Winkle for the past couple of years, when I virtually disappeared off the forum to work on my car, learn flyfishing, and other things. Then I come back and see people working on LS1 conversions. At the time I thought, ....just another 350 motor. Then I saw what nutso power they could put out with minor mods and they still get MPG's in the 20's!

 

I'm not saying E85 is the solution, but it can be a piece of the puzzle. I was a naysayer a year ago until I saw Brazil's success with ethanol. They are relatively fuel independent and a net EXPORTER of ethanol for a tidy profit, all in a generation. Where there is a will, there is a way.

[Bernardd]

Here's a link to some serious E85 users. I can't wait for this stuff to be available in Canada in my area.

http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/index.php?topic=47094.0

[Pop N Wood]

Ethanol has 3/5 the energy content of gasoline. You would have to make the engine significantly more efficient to make up that deficit.

 

Brazil is doing well with ethanol production, but the US is unlikely to match their success. It is harder to make ethanol from the starch in corn than it is from the sugars in sugar cane. We don't have the vast tracks of rain forest to slash and burn and convert to sugar cane, nor the cheap labor they do.

 

There is a continuing debate whether ethanol production from corn doesn't actually consume more fuel to grow and process the corn then one gets from the ethanol. If we were planting the crops by hand with little to no commercial fertilizer, then we might have a chance.

 

The other reason we will never match Brazil's success is the shear amount of energy we consume per person when compared to Brazil.

 

Every little bit helps is probably the answer to our energy problems. So why concentrate on production while ignoring the other side of the equation?

[silicone boy]

Very true Pop N Wood. I've always said we could solve our energy dependence better on the consumption side than the production side. Unfortunately, every member of this forum is guilty of a desire to burn fuel at an extremely high rate, with me, the Turbomeister, and many others being some of the worst offenders. Gotta have fun though! I'll brew up some extra ethanol to make up for it. I've even talked to some local microbrewerys about taking some of their bad batches of beer to distill!

[defrag010]

I wonder if the reduction in fuel economy with the E85 would be countered if the engine were actually designed to take advantage of its higher octane rating. Thoughts? At 105 octane' date=' you could do quite a bit differently with the compression, ignition timing, cam timing, boost...

 

[/quote']

I've also thought about this, but it would mean that your fuel wouldn't be able to run on regular pump gas though. It would essentially be like building a high compression race motor except with a weenie cam.

[silicone boy]

I've also thought about this, but it would mean that your fuel wouldn't be able to run on regular pump gas though. It would essentially be like building a high compression race motor except with a weenie cam.

 

 

 

Do you realize how awesome that would be? Manufacturers would make hi performance motors for us from the factory, and all we would have to do is swap out the cam to really open up the performance. Sounds just like an LSX. I say we trick Detroit in the name of fuel independence into making some hot motors for us.

[John Scott]

. I've even talked to some local microbrewerys about taking some of their bad batches of beer to distill!

I can see it now. 'Nother kegger at sb's. Hmmm, that batch wasn't THAT bad either!

[BrandonsZ]

I'm pretty sure in a modern fuel injected engine, there is two ranges for the computer program, one which relies on O2 sensor and MAF sensor to regulate fuel injectors (idle to ~2k) then another range of table values which were specifically designed to run based on calculations of the current engine configuration.

 

No way around it if you run E85 50% you are running lean after 2K even if you have injectors big enough to keep up. Your engine light is coming on would probably be because you are either exceeding the closed loop system's ability to compensate or it is noticing the lean condition thru the O2 sensor(s).

 

If that's true then the only reason you're not destroying your engine is because the E85 will run cooler ('cause it has less energy) and the program is usually slightly on the rich side to account for errors (tolerance) in the whole sensor assembly anyway.

 

I would like to hear that your SUV makes it through the next 50k without any trouble.

 

In "flex fuel" vehicles they add that $600 sensor which measures the % ethanol and adjusts the table values in the ECU to account for the leaner running vehicle.

 

Gas mileage only down 2% sounds to me like there is something else going on here which is not evident because unless your engine got significantly more efficient, this is impossible. I'm not doubting that what you've said is correct, just wondering what is really going on in that engine.

 

Typically a lean condition in a modern engine can cause overheating, detonation, melted Catalytic converters, elevated under hood temperatures, and decreased life.

 

------------------------

 

 

That aside, regardless if E85 takes more energy to produce than conventional fuel, with our current technology of large scale farming and distillation, it will cause more pollution to produce.

 

It sounds counter intuitive, but other than the solar energy needed to grow the corn or sugar cane, the fuel needed to run the tractors and combines, the fertilizer pollution from runoff, the top soil loss, pesticides, herbicides, resulting resistant bugs, resulting resistant weeds, and as in Brazil the burning of the solids of the sugar cane (which are much more polluting than natural gas or gasoline (particulates, CO NOX) all add to global pollution.

 

The tradeoff studies are inconclusive at this time because fuzzy math is involved to determine the actual amount of damage caused by some of the above mentioned pollutants (such as resistant strains of weed or bugs which then take over our home gardens).

 

 

-------------------------

 

Environmentalists are on both sides of this issue right now.

[silicone boy]

Yes I've heard all those arguments, but remember, petroleum costs a lot of energy to collect and fractionate as well, and the byproducts are simply nasty. This gets us in a vicious cycle because we have to get have to go out and get more. These are the same arguments against ethanol, which was supposed to be the original fuel for our internal combustion vehicles ( if Henry Ford had his way). We're lpretty good at growing corn. A bushel (about 55 pounds) costs $1.50 subsidized. You couldn't even fit $10 worth in your car! Ultimately, it's solar energy and it's renewable. Like I said, I was a MILITANT naysayer a year ago, giving the same anti-ethanol arguments, until I saw a show on Brazil thumbing their noses at OPEC. They burn corn stalks, use waste heat from power plants, solar energy to preheat the mash, etc. (remember you only have to heat the mash to 170 deg F to get ethanol to separate)

 

As far as destroying my engine, I'll take my chances in the name of experimentation. I know I'm running lean, but I don't notice any pinging whatsoever. If I destroy the engine, I can get another one fairly cheap from Japan, where they are required to replace engines at 35,000 miles. What I'm really going to do is get a new ECU (probably the Megasquirt).

[boodlefoof]

I'm behind you Silicone Boy. I've been speading the word of ethanol for years and am glad to see that the idea has made its way back into the news. I hope that the alternative fuels catch on. Whatever they may be, some choice is better than no choice.

[BrandonsZ]

I'm behind you Silicone Boy. I've been speading the word of ethanol for years and am glad to see that the idea has made its way back into the news. I hope that the alternative fuels catch on. Whatever they may be, some choice is better than no choice.

 

I totally agree.

 

Putting pollution aside, as long as you don't use grid power to distill that corn, or oil to till that field, combine, reap, ship, or otherwise process, than it's solar power. I'd like to know what the impact really is per gallon on the environment. Saying it's all sunshine is not a complete statement.

 

Here's how you could win with ethanol.

 

1. Greenhouse grown hydroponics organic Corn without pesticides, herbicides, or top soil erosion.

2. Solar energy to run recirculation pumps.

3. Solar energy for greenhouse and hydroponics controls.

4. Solar powered tractors, etc. for intra-plant shipments.

5. Solar powered equipment for harvest.

 

1-5 replace mining in conventional oil which, remember, causes almost zero pollution to pump out of the ground and into waiting trucks/ships.

 

6. Compare distillery costs and shipping per finished gallon to mined oil

 

Can you make a profit? If yes, then oil companies beware.

 

However,

 

Expect HUGE initial investment over a LONG period of time. If you can produce Ethanol at $2.99/gal or less to the customer and make a profit. If you succeed on a large scale expect oil prices to go down as demand for oil goes down. Therefore your prices need to come down to compete. Then expect usage tax, state tax, energy tax, and local tax to add to your price.

 

Then expect legal battles, political battles, etc.

 

I'd buy it.

[Pop N Wood]

When you get right down to it, all common energy sources are solar power. The only possible exception is nuclear energy.

 

Oil is just processed vegetation. Only real difference between it and ethanol is the distillation process.

[BrandonsZ]

When you get right down to it' date=' all common energy sources are solar power. The only possible exception is nuclear energy.

 

Oil is just processed vegetation. Only real difference between it and ethanol is the distillation process.[/quote']

 

Good point, which is why, as long as it's the cheapest solution, the pollution cost of mining the processed vegitation we already have is better for the environment than making new stuff.

 

Remember once you're hooked on Ethenol, then they can charge whatever they want for it like OPEC. One Monopoly vs. another.

[silicone boy]

Remember that oil has to be distilled also. You can't just put a gallon of crude in your car. It would be a giant mess. Where do they get the energy to distill crude oil? From refined petroleum products. It's one big circle.

 

As to the cost of ethanol production, the cheapest I have seen for home production is someone who claims to be making it for 75 cents to a gallon. Most home "brewers" are at about $1.50. With mass production, it will certainly come down from there (I'll bet the gov't won't tax fuel ethanol for a long time to encourage its use)

[Pop N Wood]

Do you know what the $1.50 a gallon guy made the ethanol from?

 

It can be made very cheaply if you get a good source of otherwise waste farm products. Orchards with a lot of half rotting fruit is a good example. Even wood can be used to distill alcohol, but the process is very inefficient compared to sugary substances.

 

But one would need a very large and reliable source of waste product to justify investing in a large processing plant.

 

If you look at just how much oil we consume and want to produce enough ethanol to influence the price, then you are forced into some type of large scale production geared specifically towards the ethanol production. This means tractors and fertilizers and bureaucracy etc.

[dr_hunt]

There is no free lunch, no matter which cafeteria program your on. Fact of life boys, we use energy stored in materials to go from one place to another, that isn't going to change, ever.

 

Alternative fuels are coming, the writing is on the wall.

[silicone boy]

Well said Doc

[Sparky]

I went to a "Green Energy Fair" this weekend and talked to a rep. for Ethanol. I'm seriously considering doing this to my Z. Haltech supports dual maps so with the flick of a switch I could run one or the other. He had his car there, a very nice red supra turbo with a single conversion. according to him, I would just need to increase my injector size and increase my fuel map accros the board 25% to make up the difference. He also stated that Ethanol runs cooler essentially cooling the intake charge.

 

He mentioned that I would need to watch my alum. fuel lines because I told him I wasnt sure if they were anodized or not. another thing he mentioned was that his exhuast temps were way down in the 700's...

 

hmm, There are several local retailers in my area, and I won't be driving my car that often so it might just work out for me.

 

Im still on the fence, for every source that tells you one thing there is another that will tell you the opposite. professional and personal agendas abound in energy consumption/production... who do you believe?

 

that leads me to another question, can you distill ethanol from fruit or veggy waste? seems to me that if we all took some time to seperate our wastes we could put a small dent in the needed resources?