CruxGNZ Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Now, I have done this in auto shop 8 years ago, so it's been a while. Overall I have made 11 new brake line connections on the car. I double flared all the lines like I remember doing back in high school. When I finished the not so small project, I started to bleed the brakes. I then noticed that the lines were leaking! Not in just one spot, but all 11 connections! Every one of them were leaking through the top of the fitting, between the fitting and the hose, and yes they were tightened. I felt like crying, and I'll tell you why later in this post. I then, thinking that I had done something wrong while flaring, checked the instructions the came with my flaring tool kit. I had done everything word for word! This is what I did, 1. chamfered end to be flared, also deburred inside of tube. 2. slid fitting on, of course. 3. clamped on flaring bar to tube at correct reveal of the tube and tightened down untill it couldn't be tightened any further. 4. Put the double flare piece into the tube. 5. Put the flaring tool onto the flaring bar and tightened down untill the double flaring tool contacted the flaring bar. 6. I then did the second part of the double flare. Now, the directions say that the tube shouldn't slide out of the flaring bar, but in #5, the tube always did slide out of the flaring bar when I tightened down the flaring tool. The result were flares looking like the ones on the store bought brake lines with the fittings on them allready. I had to cut off all of my flares, which was not fun. I then, AGAIN double flared the lines, making sure they all looked just right and perfect. Installed the lines on my car, and started to bleed the brakes. 4 connections leak! What the FUC# am I doing wrong? I don't want to tighten down the fittings any more, for fear of stripping them, which allready happened on one fitting. Would someone be able to tell me what might be happening? I can't keep doing this. Now, I'll tell you why I almost shed tears. For the last two and a half months I have had something called "Thoracic Outlet Syndrome". This may be due to a motorcycle accident almost two years ago. Here is the short of it, I broke my right clavicle (collar bone) in the accident, it didn't heal at all, and had a steel plate installed w/ 6 screws to keep me together. Lately, scar tissue has built up underneath the break resulting in pinched off arteries and nerves leading to my arm. Any position other than straight down by my side makes my whole arm go dead. It hurts like hell and is a pain to deal with when your arm doesn't work when you want it to. It's extremely frustrating. I may have to have my top rib removed, because that is where everything is getting pinched between, the scar tissue and the top rib. Anyway, I had to vent, and now you know why I wanted to cry. !M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Matt, that must be very frustrating to do all that work twice, enduring the pain while doing it, and it still leaks. Damn. Your experience with the KD tool is the same as mine - not very good. When you look into the line, is the center of the flare in the center of the tubing (concentric) or offset a bit? That's what happened to every flare that I made with that tool that leaked. It seemed more leaked than didn't. One of the reasons I have SS hard lines in my car is that I tried making my own steel lines, and had similar results. So I measured each line I had made and had www.classictubes.com make them up with the fittings I needed already flare, each to length. If I were to do it again, I'd have them made from steel thouqh - the stainless is tougher and it takes more tightening to get them to seal. Sorry this is going so badly. How about buying lines that are premade to standard lengths (a bit longer than each of your lines) and using coils in them to take up the extra length? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Hang in there, Champ! Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Have you tried using teflon tape on the threads of the brake line fittings? Sometimes when you flare your own lines-the very end the line, the part which is actually flared & is suppose to do the sealing, isnt quite "square" & allows for the flared tip to leak. Believe me when I say, "Sometimes when you tighten the fitting it feels like its about to strip the threads but go just a little bit further for the tip to "slightly crush" & then it will seal. Its kind of like putting spark plugs in your engine & the new spark plug comes w/the soft chrome steel seal ring. As you run the spark plug into the cyl.head threads you can feel the seal ring "squish"...then you know the plug is sealed! Its the same thing w/the brake line flare-you have to "crush" the end as you tighten until the fitting is flush w/its mating surface! Flaring takes a little practice. What I do when I first place the line in the flaring bar...I'll use a plumbers helper when tightening down-this makes sure the line doesnt move during the flaring process...also by using a plumber's helper-you'll notice less stress on your hand, arm & any other body part under stress. For your soarness have you tried MSM (Methysulphonylmethane) & Coral Calcium. Coral Calcimm is Calcium taken from the Coral Reefs of Okinawa Japan. MSM has a bi-product of sulphur which the body needs & cant get enough of-when the correct amount is taken it replaces the skin cells w/healthy skin cells. Coral Calcium has an extra oxide molecule in it; when we age we are losing oxygen (oxidation-just like a car rusting away) where other Calcuim products dont have this extra oxygen molecule-then our bodies degenerate & we/lose our health-the rest is history. Also if your scar tissue is effecting your tendons the muscles are connected to CMO (Cetyl Myristoleate Fatty Acid Complex) for arthritic or tendinitus symptoms. These products are from a Networking Company a few members of my family are in...I didnt believe the CMO, MSM nor the Coral Calcuim till I used them. I was a skeptic about the CMO till my Tennis Elbow began painfully reminding me it was there...I kept doubting their claims till one day the pain was too much (& yes I kept playing Tennis). Awhile back my mother began walking every day & obtained tendinitus in her leg so bad she couldnt hardly walk...we both decided to split a bottle of CMO. Her pain subsided w/in two days while mine took me @ 30 days. The Tennis Elbow was gone-over night no more pain & I've been a believer ever since! I didnt mean for this to become an advertisement...but I kind of "Felt your Pain" when you mentioned "You wanted to Cry-From the Pain". If you're interested or curious-email me your address & I'll send you some info for reading & you can atleast be enlightened or give the info to your doctor for review. Most pharmacy drugs treat the symptoms & not the problems. Kind of like replacing your brake fluid for leaks in the lines--the leaking brake fluid isnt an indication of bad brake fluid but of a leaky line-so why would you replace the fluid when the line connections need attention; this is what many doctors do when they prescribe drugs. Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 I think Pete's solution is probably the easiest. I have successfully made double flairs before (in a auto tranny line, my instructor was real anal about using double flares in the cooler lines). I think the key will be the tool not slipping, I can't tell you which brand or what might be the best, but I wouldn't use a cheap import flaring tool. You could always cut and bend them and maybe have a shop put the ends on too, just a thought. Sorry to hear about your ailment, I hope they're able to fix that for you and it heals up ok. Take care. Regards, Lone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modern Motorsports Ltd Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Good luck with your health and the flares Matt. FWIW, I had MAJOR scar tissue from cancer that wrapped completely around my heart and elsewhere. Pau d'arco (taheebo) tea removed the vast MAJORITY of it and stumped the docs when they did follow up scans expecting to see the scarred regions and found v. little. It's a fine detoxifier and aid to the body without being drastic like so many others. Beware of potential itchiness from the MSM Kevin mentioned as it has organic sulfur which can lead to itching in some as it did for me....was kind of traumatic as itchiness is a symptom of the Hodgkin's disease I've had twice now....so I was VERY relieved a few scans later when it was attributed to MSM's organic sulfur. For nerve inflammations I've found parsley/sprouts etc to help quite a bit as well as cold/hot/cold physio type therapies....any q's etc feel free to drop me a line personally...bin der dun dat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CruxGNZ Posted July 16, 2001 Author Share Posted July 16, 2001 Wow, thanks guys for the kind words! When I flared the lines, a couple of them were off center just a hair when looking into the line. Maybe that's why they leaked. Tomorrow I will really crank down on those lines I made and if that doesn't work, then I will buy pre-made lines from the parts store and coil them up if they are to long. It wont look pretty under there but it will work right. Man, what a pisser this project was. I was supposed to have the car back in it's garage a few days ago, not in the driveway up on jack stands. On the plus side, I know my Z's braking system very well. I think I will return my flaring kit, no point in having it if the flares it makes don't work well. I bought it from Sears and I don't think it's a cheap import, it's pretty hefty, even though it's made in Taiwan. On a side note, I'm not a big baby. I have a VERY high tollerance for pain. I have ruptured my spleen completely in half, crashed a few motorcycles, ripped my leg right open, broke my ankle, busted my thumb, tweaked my wrist, broke a toe or two, had well over 100 small but deep cuts on my face from a sheet of thin ice, the list keeps going. This is just an annoyance pain. It's allways there and hurts like hell. This will not heal on it's own like some other injuries. It will just keep getting worse. I am curious about that tea though, that tae-bo (or whatever it was called ) tea. I just have to get this car back on the ground before it rains tommorow night. Most of you must think I'm an old fart or something with old age kicking in. Nope, I'm 25 and build houses for a living. I have to find another job, I'm allways injured and can't perform well at work. Well, Building Inspector, here I come. Thanks again guys. !M! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scca Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 the lines cant slip at ALL in the mount. also if its not perfectly centered it will leak. the flare can look ugly but if its centered it willlikely work ok. i use a 12" long s-driver to tighten the wingnuts on the tool real tight then use a wire wheel to remove the grooves after- looks factory- and i still make some screwups with lots of practice.. practice----- if the lines out of the car hold the tool in a vise - its the lines repaired onthe car that are a problem..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted July 16, 2001 Share Posted July 16, 2001 Just a additional note. I've noticed that tubing now days (vs long ago) split a lot easier in the flaring process. This can be eliminated by the chamfering step and by not trying to flair too much material. I also found that heating the end with a propane torch also softened the tubing enough to keep it from splitting at the flare(annealing?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Shasteen Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Ross, good for you for researching your own condition & resolving it naturally...I always enjoy a good success story. Ross, (Anyone else whose interested of course) are you familiar w/Colloidal Silver-stops the inflamation of the skin; kills bacteria on contact...especially good for those of you who are allergic to Poison Ivy-stops/kills Poison Ivy on contact: providing the "ppm" of the Colloidal Silver are high enough/most store bought "ppm" are too low to really make a difference-you have to "Brew Your Own". Do a search on line for anyone's whose interested. Colloidal Silver is great for Ear-Aches...for any of you whose kids are goind thru the ear ache syndrome-Colloidal Silver stops the pain "Immediately" I know-I've used it many times for an ear ache. Really Great Stuff! Mat; with a list of injuries like that-are you sure your name isnt Evil K-nevil (sp?) or Richard Petty? Kevin, (Yea,Still an Inliner) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Baldwin Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Pardon me if I'm an idiot here, but shouldn't the brake lines be SINGLE flared? I don't see how a double flare would work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Matt, Having suffered a broken right collar bone, and a left seperated shoulder, I fully sympathise with your pain... I remember sneezing once right after the left side injury and I literally cried from the pain... Let the tears flow when you need to, its perfectly natural, and noone who is anybody important will think any less of you. You need to get that nerve issue resolved, as that is the source of ALL your trouble. Thank god all my injuries over the years (33 broken bones, including a fractured skull in 1998) have left only minor inconveniances in living my life.. Almost all of my injuries come from racing mountain bikes or road cycling, although a couple werefrom car accidents.. Soft tissue injuries SUCK. Hang in there, and buy yourself a good SNAPON flare kit...mine works great and does the flares, both single and double, very well on the first try. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Dang, now I feel bad. I don't have even one double flare on a single fitting on my entire car. I guess it might be my next tool investment in the double flare dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owen Posted July 17, 2001 Share Posted July 17, 2001 Don't feel bad...I think I ended up doing ISO flares on the tubing with double flares in the brake line adapters (brass fittings)! Owen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Baldwin Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 Now I'm worried, I just did two short lines from the switch assembly to the ZX prop valve I just installed. Took some practice, but I did get a couple of good-looking single flares. Waiting on a master cylinder and booster, so I haven't checked for leaks yet. Getting them tomorrow AM, leaving for Watkins Glen (7+hr drive) tomorrow afternoon (ambitious, ain't I). Guess I might try to do some shorty double flared lines in case the ones I installed Sunday leak. Dang, I thought it was going to be a short night working on the car. So, blueovalZ, do you have any leakage issues w/ your single flare connections? Did you do them yourself? Do I absolutely NEED to double flare them? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Baldwin Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 Oh yeah, and if I DO need to, what's the procedure? Single flare the end, w/ maybe 1.5mm protruding from the tool, then use the double flare tool on the very end of the flare? Brakeless in New Bedford, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pparaska Posted July 18, 2001 Share Posted July 18, 2001 Dan, you have to do a double flare or the tubing will not seal and it will split. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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