gjc5500 Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 my neighbot has a Pantera (very nice car for free) and it has a coil pack in it, his buddy has a old chevy w/ MSD dizzy and control box. i was wondering if there was any way to get a coil pack, or even a msd system for the z? i have a 73 240 and have looked on MSD for both, am i missing it? i cnt find it. on the forms i saw a coil pack but it didnt look like it was for the z. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 12, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 12, 2006 my neighbot has a Pantera (very nice car for free) and it has a coil pack in it, his buddy has a old chevy w/ MSD dizzy and control box. i was wondering if there was any way to get a coil pack, or even a msd system for the z? i have a 73 240 and have looked on MSD for both, am i missing it? i cnt find it. on the forms i saw a coil pack but it didnt look like it was for the z. I assume you're looking for a DIS system (Distributor-less Ignition System). If so, there are a number of ways to do this. The easiest (but not necessarily cheapest) is through Electomotive. They have stand-alone DIS's. Another way is using Megasquirt or MegaJolt to run a Ford EDIS system. There are also a number of other stand-alone EFI stytems that will run coil packs including SDS, Motec, and Wolf3D (my personal favorite). Here is a shot of 6 coils ran by a Wolf system I recently installed on a ZX... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 coil pack=distributorless ignition.car must have some amount on electronics aboard.a 75-78 280 z distributor will drive a msd 6 type box directly through mag pick-up input.from your post it sounds like you have some studying to do about how things work.keep reading but beware the admins on this site will remind you to use the search function. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjc5500 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 i no that its a dizzy less system. i heard that msd make a universal crank trigger, but i couldnt find a pack that was made for the 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 12, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 12, 2006 i no that its a dizzy less system. i heard that msd make a universal crank trigger, but i couldnt find a pack that was made for the 6 MSD's reliabilty is not always what it ought to be. May I suggest researching a bit more before becoming addicted to one brand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 RON... Do you have a brand preference? I've been seriously considering an upgrade for a different application but brand reliability should be universal. I've heard good and bad about most brands but a few say that Crane is more reliable than MSD. Conversely, I've heard that MSD is absolutely the best way to go. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 12, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 12, 2006 RON... Do you have a brand preference? I've been seriously considering an upgrade for a different application but brand reliability should be universal. I've heard good and bad about most brands but a few say that Crane is more reliable than MSD. Conversely, I've heard that MSD is absolutely the best way to go. What do you think? Mike, It appears that MANY have produced some serious numbers with MSD's products. I won't argue with MSD's success. I have also personally witnessed several MSD failures... stock replacement and otherwise. Hence, MSD products aren't allowed in my shop Electromotive is probably my biggest competitor (I'm a Wolf3D distributor). Even still, you'd be much more likely to find Electromotive on my car than MSD. If you're just looking for DIS, look into their products. On the other hand, If you want the full-meal-deal ie, a complete engine mangement system, then Wolf is my first choice. SDS is good stuff as well. It does limit growth to some degree and its similarly priced with Wolf. MS is very versatile and inexpensive, but does require patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjc5500 Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 i started looking at the crane cam's breakerless w/ a fireball coil. i no its still uses a dizzy, but better right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 12, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 12, 2006 i started looking at the crane cam's breakerless w/ a fireball coil. i no its still uses a dizzy, but better right? Most any electronic igniton will perform better than points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 RON... For those of us using a dizzy and WITHOUT bottomless wallets, what is a good choice for those needing a versatile system that will do most anything we might want for a street-driven car? Regarding cost, I mean >$300 basic (not including dizzy) and >$1K all-out (not including dizzy)? BTW, all-out means multiple retard, all inputs for sensing units, under dash adjustable timing, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 13, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 13, 2006 RON... For those of us using a dizzy and WITHOUT bottomless wallets, what is a good choice for those needing a versatile system that will do most anything we might want for a street-driven car? Regarding cost, I mean >$300 basic (not including dizzy) and >$1K all-out (not including dizzy)? BTW, all-out means multiple retard, all inputs for sensing units, under dash adjustable timing, etc. Mike, I'm taking you to mean utilizing a stock distributor and upgrading parts? You're pretty limited in 'control' in that case. I'm not really sure what to tell you exactly. I've had experience with both Pertronics ignitor and the Crane conversion. Both were HUGE improvements over points. A couple things though... they were both on very mild motors and it would be hard NOT to improve on points. I have had pretty decent success with the stock Datsun electronic ignitions as well. Buy a decent coil (not MSD) and good quality wires (Magnecor is used nearly exclusively around here). Then re-curve your distributor. Datsuns LOVE advance (poor chamber appears to be the culprit). You could easily spend $2-300 going this route. Admittedly, I'm a little out of touch with what the market offeres in terms of dizzy related bits. They just don't excite me these days. I'm a little more experinced with DIS at this time. As for spending close to $1000... there is NO way I'd spend that much on a distributor type ignition... you can have a pretty fair, if not damn good, DIS system for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Thanks Ron, What I meant is that I would buy a new billet dizzy with no vacuum or centrifugal advance and not count that as part of the overall expense. I want the box(es) to control the timing, not the dizzy. I was asking for recommendations for a very basic system (>$300)... and a high end (>$1K) controlling every conceivable timing adjustment any street-driven car with N2O is likely to need. I didn't mention my application because it's off-topic from the thread. I have a SBC 350 with a mid/mild cam, Performer RPM heads, Performer EPS intake, Edeldbrock 650 CFM 4bbl, block hugger headers and 2.5 inch dual exhaust... I may add 100HP N2O. All this will change soon to a very healthy SBC 406 with ~500BHP including N2O but that shouldn't affect what ignition I choose. Mike, I'm taking you to mean utilizing a stock distributor and upgrading parts? You're pretty limited in 'control' in that case. I'm not really sure what to tell you exactly. I've had experience with both Pertronics ignitor and the Crane conversion. Both were HUGE improvements over points. A couple things though... they were both on very mild motors and it would be hard NOT to improve on points. I have had pretty decent success with the stock Datsun electronic ignitions as well. Buy a decent coil (not MSD) and good quality wires (Magnecor is used nearly exclusively around here). Then re-curve your distributor. Datsuns LOVE advance (poor chamber appears to be the culprit). Admittedly, I'm a little out of touch with what the market offeres in terms of dizzy related bits. They just don't excite me these days. I'm a little more experinced with DIS at this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 13, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 13, 2006 What I meant is that I would buy a new billet dizzy with no vacuum or centrifugal advance and not count that as part of the overall expense. I want the box(es) to control the timing, not the dizzy. Sorry for the confusion. A possible choice would be to use a later model HEI dizzy with the 7 pin ignition module (ala, 85 vette). Then use Megasquirt (or possibly MegaJolt) to run the timing for you. You'd have essentially total control at that point. MS even offers multiple timing maps (activated for use with NOS, for example). Unfortunately, HEI is a bit RPM limited. The better coils will extend that range but don't plan on a 7K motor with that set-up. This would be the best bang for the buck, IMO. However, If it were me, I'd be looking into DIS. Its only a bit more work with tangible pay-offs. Again MS or MJ controlling an EDIS system would likely be the most cost effective. Of note though... there is rumor that EDIS8 is RPM limited as well. Spend a little time on the MS forum and you'll see some info on EDIS8 limitations... see if they fit your goals. Then of course the dollars go up from there. P.S. A secondary benefit of DIS in the case of an SBC is the ability to retain the stock hood latch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 Hi Ron, The confusion was caused by me... sorry:oops: I'd like to install the simplest dizzy of the very highest quality so I can set the initial timing and forget it... forever. This is a street motor with a low-rise manifold and will never be revved beyond 6.5K RPM. EDIS... that one uses multiple coils mouted to the engine and a cam-driven pickup, right? Hmm... that's a thought. The latch isn't an issue for me though. This is an Alpha 1 and the latch is unused. In fact. I'll be removing it soon. Know anyone who needs a good latch? What is the expected $$$ for a decent/complete EDIS/MegaJolt system? Of course... then I'll have to buy a laptop PC... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 13, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 13, 2006 I'd like to install the simplest dizzy of the very highest quality so I can set the initial timing and forget it... forever. Mike, If you hang everything on initial timing, especially with NOS, you will very likely melt your motor. Initial timing is only relevant at idle right? How much time do you spend idling? Catch my drift? Yes, with a traditional distributor, adjusting initial timing pushes the whole curve up or down, but the curve itself remains constant. If you find the correct timing at high RPM/LOAD (by adjusting initial) then what do you do about the midrange? How about the low end? The fast guy's would then re-curve their distributor to optimize the timing everywhere. Why? because you just can't get there with initial timing. With a stand alone system, when you adjust initial, the only thing that changes is idle timing. You must develop the curve. Do it wrong on NOS and you've got liquid metal If this all sound like its not worth the bother to you, then I would suggest sticking with a standard distributor thats been curved by someone with NOS experience. I'll bet an entire dollar that GrumpyVette can point you in the direction of just such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 13, 2006 Share Posted October 13, 2006 RON... I think I confused the issue again. Only the locked dizzy is set and forget. The ignition box will control RPM (centrifugal) advance start point, end point, and total RPM advance... plus control the vacuum advance via a intake-mounted sensor... plus start retard as well as retard with N2O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted October 13, 2006 Administrators Share Posted October 13, 2006 RON... I think I confused the issue again. Only the locked dizzy is set and forget. The ignition box will control RPM (centrifugal) advance start point, end point, and total RPM advance... plus control the vacuum advance via a intake-mounted sensor... plus start retard as well as retard with N2O. Ok, I *think* I see where the confusion is... I would refer to that as "mechanical" timing (or even static timing). Its mostly irrelevant at this point. Some systems will accomodate mechanical timing with an "offset" variable in the software. Electromotive just expects you to add or subtract the known amount on your own. Not a show stopper in any case. Moving on... Again MS would probably be the cheapest way to retain a dizzy and have full control, including two igniton maps (one for NOS, if you like). I'm not sure if MJ has the two map feature... you'll have do dig. If it does, then MJ would save you a couple dollars in the end. Yes, EDIS implements multiple wasted-spark coils. Its triggered with a crank sensor... a 36-1 wheel and a VR sensor (variable reluctor). Pretty straight forward. EDIS interfaces pretty well with MS, IME. Cost is largely dependant on your local JY... EDIS systems around here can typically be had at U-pulls for $40 to $75. An assembled MS box from DIY AutoTune runs around $240 to $330. Add your choice of wires and there you go... P.S. Most pawn shops in my area sell used laptops for $150-$250 and I'm sure you could do better elsewhere... you don't need anything fancy. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted October 14, 2006 Share Posted October 14, 2006 Hmm... interesting... I'll dig deeper into this option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 ................... Here is a shot of 6 coils ran by a Wolf system I recently installed on a ZX... Nice neat setup, what coils are they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjc5500 Posted October 16, 2006 Author Share Posted October 16, 2006 im looking into megajolt. i no that there r plenty of fords sitting in teh boneyard to get the packs from. so what would i need to steal off of a ford v6 if i got the megajolt unit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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