typhoone Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 I have been trying to find out what woul be the best route for the most power? carb, throttle body, or fuel injected? I can't find anything definite on it all. would someone please give me a pros/cons list. thanks for the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Carb - Easy to install, does the job. - Poor metering and difficult to tune. Throttle Body - Injection - Single nozzle spray, atomizes fuel well, simple wiring. - Hard to get precise fuel in each cylinder and relies heavily on intake design. Fuel Injection - Multiport - Awesome control ability, easy to manage and tune. - Difficult to wire up. Overall multiport fuel injection is the best so long as you get proper sensors and a good ECU to control it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoone Posted November 14, 2006 Author Share Posted November 14, 2006 what sensors and ecu should I get? where would be the best place to get them? do they make performance ecu's or power chips that will work for this swap??? thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 injected methanol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Although I'm not a 300ZX guy, the popular Engine Management for the classics is Mega Squirt n' Spark. It's cheap and well thought out. it can be wired into an existing harness or you can create your own. There's A LOT of custom aftermarket ECUs out there. Search around for engine management or fuel management and you'll find a lot. I bought an Electromotive TEC3 system while I was Iraq because I had the money, but it's an extremely pricey setup. Read up on the systems and make sure they'll do what you want. Consider the level of tuning you want to do. Multiport injection or Throttle Body? Do you want syncronous injection or batch fire injection? Do you want a wide band O2 for fine tuning? Do you want a single unit to control fuel and spark? Do you want coil packs and crank trigger or distributer and single coil? MAP Sensor or Mass Air Flow Sensor? There's a lot of things to consider and make sure that what you want is supported by the ECU you're buying. After market systems a fully programmable so there is no need for a chip or performance anything, you make it do what you want it to. Weigh your options carefully and consider where you might go in the future too. If you buy an ECU now based on limited funds and later decide you want to do more and can't, you end up spending more money than if you just bought what you needed to start with and added on later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 There are some people who feel the carb has a power advantage over FI. Something about cooling the intake charge. FI is "easy to tune". All you need to do is get a lap top and learn how to use the control software. Oh, and then you need to know how an engine works so you know what to do to get the most out of the engine. That second sentence holds true for setting up a carb, too. As for your question, the reason you can't find anything definitive on the subject is because there probably isn't a single correct answer. There is a lot more to makeing power than just the fuel metering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 Riiiiigggghhhhhttttt..... Sure there's more to it than fuel metering, but in order to properly use what ever else you've done you need proper fuel metering. Throttle Body injection can cool the intake just as well as a carb and at the same time meter fuel better. With the proper sensors and a decent knowlege of engines and how they work you can setup an EFI system easily and more precisely than a carb ever could. Lets put it this way, if you're smart enough to install and wire it up, then you can do the programming with minimal issues. Carburation has long since been obsolete and unnecessary. It's often used now because it's cheap and you can find almost anyone to set it up with nothing more than screw driver for tuning. Multiport is more involved, but it's more precise. You get fuel injected at the valve instead of at the intake. Your intake can be smaller and formed many different ways. Runner style intake are great for multiport as the runners can cool the air while the fuel is injected toward the end given time to atomize and properly mix into the cylinder. He didn't ask which was simpler to setup, he asked for pros and cons and which was best. Multiport EFI is the best for metering fuel accurately. It's difficult to wire up, but easy to tune as you pull up a laptop and plug it in. Everything else is as simple adjusting and watching sensor readouts. How do you adjust a carb? Oh yeah, turn a screw, run it. Pull the plugs, check the color, turn the screw, run it, check the plugs, turn a screw....etc....Not to mention in order to properly tune a carb how many sets of plugs do you go through? Once they're flooded or burnt they're not reliable sources to read anymore. Color Tune helps a great deal, so what happens when it get cold outside? A carb doesn't know it's cold. it dumps the same amount of fuel. What about when you drive through the mountains? A carb doesn't know the alititude has changed... Guess what....EFI does. It senses the changes in the exhaust and the intake and adjusts accordingly. Which would you really rather have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoone Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 dang y'all, that was the most information that i have ever gotten from a thread. just wondering, i am REALLY good with computers, but when it comes down to wiring and all that fun stuff.....ain't going to happen. if i paid someone to run the ecu and all that fun stuff around how much would it probably cost? and who makes the best ecu's? i want the most power possible, and i realize that i can get alot more power through the ecu's because of all the tuning options. If i get someone to run the wires and all that fun stuff i will be able to tune it myself, i always have my laptop with me, and i can learn just about anything that involves a computer, but i would have to get someone else to wire up everything for me. thank you once again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted November 15, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2006 typhoone, This thread is a pot stirrer If I've ever seen one ;-D I look at it this way... The narrower the engines operating conditions are, the better the carburetor looks. The wider range of expected use, the better EFI looks. For example, If you had a single cylinder engine, running a fixed rpm, fixed load, fixed temperature, fixed barometric pressure, fixed humidity, fixed fuel, etc, etc. Carb'd, it will likely make more power, more efficiently (if optimized, of course) than with EFI. On the other hand, throw in a broad range of environmental conditions, altutude changes, extreme rpm ranges, load changes, turbo's and so on... the EFI will adapt to the conditions far better than a carb. The larger the dynamic range of conditions subjected to the engine, the more EFI shines. Either way, if you're serious, give it the due diligence it deserves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted November 15, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2006 Typhoone, Okie dokie… There is a lot of great info here. Kudos to the posters who contributed, but, (I know, when the word “but” is used, everything prior to that word doesn’t count, but, it does in this case …) when I read the initial question, (first post of this thread), and then read through all the responses, I felt like everyone was “throwing up” information on this poor guy, all in an effort to inform him with as much knowledge as possible so that he can make a very informed decision before he installs an induction system on his Z car. I applaud the efforts of every one here in that effort, but was all that information needed to answer his question directly or in this stage of his learning about induction systems? (I used that word “but” again didn’t I? Oops, sorry…) I know, everyone is just trying to help and you all are doing a great job, but remember back to when you were in your infancy of learning this stuff. Too much information can add to the confusion that most likely already exists… (I didn’t say “but” again did I?...) I know you guys are going to think I’m biased because Ron is my partner, (I am happily married to a wonderful “woman” for 18 years now, so don’t get any ideas...), but we are “business” partners because we see this sort of stuff on a similar level, (not everything mind you as he is a MAC user! ). If you step back and look at this, you’ll most likely agree. Ron Tyler’s response summed up Typhoones original question rather well. Ron did leave out the attributes of Throttle body injection though. Throttle body injection is, in my opinion, a glorified carburetor. It has the attributes of keeping the butterfly/s in the throttle valve clean by spraying fuel on them directly, (gasoline is a great solvent for cleaning parts right?), and allows for pinpoint fuel map tuning if the ECU allows you to make adjustments, i.e stand alone EFI. As for fuel distribution, throttle body Fuel Injection suffers from the same issues that Carbs do, but allows for more precise fuel control vs a carb over a broader spectrum of conditions, i.e. temperature, altitude, extreme RPM changes, Artificial aspiration, etc. Multi port EFI expands on that to whole another level with the possibilities of individual cylinder fuel trim, exotic intake manifold designs, etc… Ok, now “BRAAP” is done hurling on this guy for now… Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted November 15, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2006 It has the attributes of keeping the butterfly/s in the throttle valve clean by spraying fuel on them directly ...My favorite feature Yeah, I did disregard TB injection. TB injection was a stepping stone in emissions regulation. It was a way for auto manufactures to gain the 'control' needed for compliance, inexpensively. I can empathize with both Carbie's or Fuelies, but I just can't bring myself to the TB table... its halfway to nowhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 You don't have to totally return to the stone age to set up a carb. Who reads plugs in this day and age? http://www.bob2000.com/carb.htm You guys need to reread the initial question. They are pretty basic and, IMO, display a general lack of knowledge if not understanding. I was more trying to get the guy to take a step back and get some more background information than to make a decision based on a couple of quick opinions. And there are people who honestly believe a carb has a power advantage. I didn't say I was one of them, but I have read enough internet chatter to know there are people who firmly believe that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Ok we'll look at the actual question and make a decisive and basic answer. I have been trying to find out what woul be the best route for the most power? carb, throttle body, or fuel injected? I can't find anything definite on it all. would someone please give me a pros/cons list. thanks for the help. Given the subject of the thread being fuel the answer is multiport EFI with an aftermarket engine management system. Carb - Pros - Simple design that gets the job done. It can be used on many applications with little to no knowlege of the engine functions. - Cons - Doesn't self adjust for conditions and isn't precise in fuel metering. TB Injection - Pros - Again, simple design, but allows for more control than a carb as it can be controlled and the fuel can be mapped. - Cons - Reliant on manifold for even distribution to the cylinders. Little more complcated than a carb setup. Multiport Injection - Pros - Fully adjustable, can adjust individual cylinders, computer controlled to adapt to the enviroment, can be used in any application. - Cons - Difficult to setup, lots of wiring, expensive, and requires a laptop or computer connection to properly tune it (not sure why this is a con, but someone on here thinks it is). There now both questions in the original post have bee answered as simply as they can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 dang y'all, that was the most information that i have ever gotten from a thread. just wondering, i am REALLY good with computers, but when it comes down to wiring and all that fun stuff.....ain't going to happen. if i paid someone to run the ecu and all that fun stuff around how much would it probably cost? and who makes the best ecu's? i want the most power possible, and i realize that i can get alot more power through the ecu's because of all the tuning options. If i get someone to run the wires and all that fun stuff i will be able to tune it myself, i always have my laptop with me, and i can learn just about anything that involves a computer, but i would have to get someone else to wire up everything for me. thank you once again. Expensive! If you can even find someone to do it. Your average "Joe Garage Mechanic" wouldn't take on a task like that. You'd have to find a specialty shop that's willing to do it. They're around, but I've never seen one myself. That's all a matter of oppinion. There are many ECU manufacturers out there. Electromotive, Mega Squirt, Haltec, etc... Google can render hundreds of manufacturers and all of them have their pros and cons. I went with Electromotive and their TEC3 unit because it's well known, has an extensive track record in performance, has a simple but extensive interface software and it's capable of doing everything I want it to. And it came with a package I bought from Top End Performance. It is very expensive though. Weigh your options and look at what you want to do with the car then look at the money you're willing to spend. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 What do you guys think of the Vintage Speed EFI setup for SBC? I doubt it's much good beyond about 5.5-6K RPM though, judging by the intake style. SB Chevy fuel injection For you guys that want a high tech fuel system with the vintage look, our setup may be just what your after. We can offer precise fuel delivery in applications from 250 HP to over 500 HP. System includes Offy intake with our components-cnc machined throttle bodies with brushed stainless ram tubes by LAMBERT. Available with braided ss lines as shown or hard lines of polished Stainless. System comes complete with sensors in intake, wire harness and the very popular PC programable MEGASQUIRT computer. Setup comes with a basic start and run program for your engine installed in the computor ready for the final laptop tuneup. Easy to tune and very dependable. A quality injection at a reasonable price. Call us for info. We also can adapt injectors to other vintage intakes including flathead fords. Complete basic setup--ready to run starts at ---$2600.00 www.vintagespeed.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
typhoone Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 What do you guys think of the Vintage Speed EFI setup for SBC? I doubt it's much good beyond about 5.5-6K RPM though, judging by the intake style. SB Chevy fuel injection For you guys that want a high tech fuel system with the vintage look, our setup may be just what your after. We can offer precise fuel delivery in applications from 250 HP to over 500 HP. System includes Offy intake with our components-cnc machined throttle bodies with brushed stainless ram tubes by LAMBERT. Available with braided ss lines as shown or hard lines of polished Stainless. System comes complete with sensors in intake, wire harness and the very popular PC programable MEGASQUIRT computer. Setup comes with a basic start and run program for your engine installed in the computor ready for the final laptop tuneup. Easy to tune and very dependable. A quality injection at a reasonable price. Call us for info. We also can adapt injectors to other vintage intakes including flathead fords. Complete basic setup--ready to run starts at ---$2600.00 www.vintagespeed.com dang, $2600...that's more than I payed for the car, motor, transmission, vortec heads, rebuild kit, and a 383 stroker kit......I will have to think about that....wouldn't happen to want to do a sponsorship would you??? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 Damn. Didn't realize I was touching on a religious issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 (Vintage Speed EFI Setup) typhoone... I'm having enough trouble sponsoring my OWN mods, dude:-D If it performs well, it seems like a nice compromise with that "vintage" look that I'm seeking but with modern air/fuel management. Only two things stop me from trying this one... 1) the 500 HP limit/unknown performance and 2) $$$$$$$$$$$ dang, $2600...that's more than I payed for the car, motor, transmission, vortec heads, rebuild kit, and a 383 stroker kit......I will have to think about that....wouldn't happen to want to do a sponsorship would you??? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 POP... EVERYTHING about the hybrid-Z experience has religious overtones. Once you get your ride singing like a choir and you step on the throttle, all you can say is, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, OH MY GOD!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COZY Z COLE Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 POP... EVERYTHING about the hybrid-Z experience has religious overtones. Once you get your ride singing like a choir and you step on the throttle, all you can say is, "Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, OH MY GOD!!!! I heard someone saying those same words the other night... LARRY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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