mtcookson Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Alright... so I've had this idea of making a valve that would help a twin scroll turbine spool faster. Some of you guys might have seen it but one guy made one using a butterfly valve design and it spooled 700 rpm faster (http://www.speedshopthagard.com/projects/280Z_Turbo/index.html) but I wanted something that would flow much better than that, so I set out to make a sort of swing valve design. Mine definitely isn't near as compact as the one above but it should flow quite a bit better, which should hopefully make spooling even faster. The valve really just makes the turbine a very low cost variable area turbine. Here's the buildup process of what I have so far, let me know what you think. Here's the start of it (my work table is a bit of a mess... I need to quit working on multiple cars at once ): http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020113.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020114.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020115.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020116.JPG I almost have it finished but messed up a few things (fixable) so I'm probably going to finish it tomorrow, but here is the current: Welds are decent. I didn't want to get too close to the side so that it didn't weld the pieces together. http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020155.JPG Took the welds down a bit to hopefully assist in making it flow a bit smoother (pictures a little blurry) http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020156.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020157.JPG Got the other side tacked on http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020159.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020160.JPG Here I basically matched one side of the flange to the valve assembly to try keeping flow decent and turbulence down. Its not the straightest match but should work pretty good. http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020161.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020165.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020166.JPG I hit two corners but it shouldn't be too bad. Since I'm not really sure if this will work or not I'm not working too hard to make it absolutely perfect. http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020171.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020172.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020174.JPG Here's what it'll basically look like: http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020175.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020176.JPG http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020178.JPG The valve open for top end flow http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020182.JPG Closed for faster spooling. I still need to add a separator at the top and bottom to keep both passages split, but this is basically what it'll look like. http://www.machzracing.com/Maxima/QSV/P1020181.JPG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blake culp Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 Good looking part and an interesting idea. Im guessing when the flap is closed you are forcing the exhaust through a smaller opening thus increasing the velocity of the exhaust to make the turbo spool faster....is that correct? Also, how do you plan on moving the flap? Keep us updated with results. Blake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj paul Posted February 14, 2007 Share Posted February 14, 2007 looks good, good idea. only thing i suggest is to smooth out the inside where the little passage meets the flange. im eager to see your idea for activating this, is it going to be controlled by a solenoid thats controlled by aftermarket EFI? or just a modified cable that kind of mimmicks throttle body? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TeamNissan Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Ya, I'm impressed. I cant wait to see how this pans out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blairjj Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 I have a question. James Thaggard's original design that you linked to above was made with Hastelloy (I believe). From our friends at Wikipedia - "The primary function of the Hastelloy super alloys is that of effective survival under high temperature, high stress service in a moderately to severely corrosive, and/or erosion prone environment where more common and less expensive iron based alloys would fail – including the pressure vessels of some nuclear reactors, chemical reactors, and pipes and valves in chemical industry." James may have went a little overboard on the material but, the thought was obviously for survival at the high temps south of the turbo's exhaust. What does your design use for material? Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TeamNissan Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Looks like steel to me, wonder what alloy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 Good looking part and an interesting idea.Im guessing when the flap is closed you are forcing the exhaust through a smaller opening thus increasing the velocity of the exhaust to make the turbo spool faster....is that correct? Also, how do you plan on moving the flap? Keep us updated with results. Blake Thats my question too but can't think of any answer other than yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 15, 2007 Share Posted February 15, 2007 ............... im eager to see your idea for activating this, is it going to be controlled by a solenoid thats controlled by aftermarket EFI? or just a modified cable that kind of mimmicks throttle body? Like the idea of an aftermarket ECU controlling it via a solenoid, triggered by set revs or MAP or a combination of both, manual control could be a PITA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted February 16, 2007 Author Share Posted February 16, 2007 Good looking part and an interesting idea.Im guessing when the flap is closed you are forcing the exhaust through a smaller opening thus increasing the velocity of the exhaust to make the turbo spool faster....is that correct? Keep us updated with results. Blake Yup, you have it. Basically all I'm doing is essentially cutting the a/r of the turbine in half so to speak. When the valve is closed, its like running a small turbine housing and when open like running a larger turbine housing. looks good, good idea. only thing i suggest is to smooth out the inside where the little passage meets the flange. Yeah, I noticed in some of the pictures I still had a bit of the flange in the way of the flow so I'm going to get that evened out next time I work on it. I have a question. James Thaggard's original design that you linked to above was made with Hastelloy (I believe). From our friends at Wikipedia - "The primary function of the Hastelloy super alloys is that of effective survival under high temperature, high stress service in a moderately to severely corrosive, and/or erosion prone environment where more common and less expensive iron based alloys would fail – including the pressure vessels of some nuclear reactors, chemical reactors, and pipes and valves in chemical industry." James may have went a little overboard on the material but, the thought was obviously for survival at the high temps south of the turbo's exhaust. What does your design use for material? Jay If that is what he used... that definitely seems to be overkill. At the moment I'm just using regular ol' mild steel. 1/8" thick for the valve and valve walls, 3/8" thick flanges. I was thinking of using 1/2" thick flanges but figured not only would that be slightly overkill but a total of 1.5" thickness for flanges alone would really start to make fitting it tight. If it works out pretty well, I'll probably consider using 316 or, even better yet, 321 stainless steel for the whole assembly so it would last as long as possible... but that will definitely be down the road if it does work. If I do end up doing that though, I'll redesign it a bit. I want the walls to curve and match the flanges instead of being square and modifying the flanges to match. Since I would be doing the walls like that, the valve itself will have to be curved to match the walls, which at the moment I don't really have the equipment to do too well... it would probably end up being pretty crooked. Also, how do you plan on moving the flap? ------------- im eager to see your idea for activating this, is it going to be controlled by a solenoid thats controlled by aftermarket EFI? or just a modified cable that kind of mimmicks throttle body? ------------- Like the idea of an aftermarket ECU controlling it via a solenoid, triggered by set revs or MAP or a combination of both, manual control could be a PITA. At the moment, I'm designing it almost identically to an internal wastegate. On both sides of the valve, where the shaft is sticking out, I'll have a little "arm" for a wastegate actuator to attach to, exactly like the internal gate "flapper". I'm doing both sides so that I can actually test out which side of the turbo spools best, if either is even better than the other at all. The way I designed it, I just have to flip the valve over and if there isn't enough clearance on one side then I just move the actuator to the other side. The actuator itself will just be a simple internal gate actuator however I'm going to modify it (hopefully) to accept vacuum on the other side, like most newer external gates. This way, it'll be constantly closed (quick spool) so that when I get to my set boost limit the valve will open. While I'm just cruising around the vacuum will also open the valve allowing decreased back pressure over the valve being closed. Very simple setup. I can even control it with a boost controller, which I'll likely do, to keep it closed tight for as long as possible for the quickest possible spooling, because as most know with a wastegate actuator like that it'll slowly start to open without anything to control the boost signal to it. Another beauty of this setup is I don't have to run a very high pressure spring, no matter what boost I set it at, unlike most wastegates. No matter how much pressure is going through the exhaust, it'll stay closed until the actuator opens it, unlike a wastegate. This will make controlling the spooling very easy with a boost controller. Just use, say, a 7 pound actuator and I could have it open the valve at 20 psi for instance with no chance of leakage. Down the road I'd like to try out an electronic actuator with either an rpm signal or a boost signal, boost signal likely being the more accurate for what I'm doing. Really though... all that will do is just cut down on the mess. The above mechanical method should really have equal control, or even more control with a boost controller, compared to using an electric actuator. Granted the electric actuator would likely be a little quicker to get the valve open and shut, I just don't really see it as absolutely necessary at the moment, unless my above idea doesn't work out as well I'm planning. I haven't had a chance to work on it since I originally posted about it but I should be able to get out there tomorrow night and I will definitely be able to work on it Sunday so I'll definitely have more for you guys this weekend. Sadly the Maxima won't be running by this weekend to test it out, but at the very least the valve should be done by then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 i just created the post a few down about my spacer....i was just gonna show you what i did to match those curves on the inside of the flange... and the finished product that matches the flange pretty much perfectly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TeamNissan Posted February 16, 2007 Share Posted February 16, 2007 Ya cook, if you used bobys method I think it would be almost perfect. I'm wondering how you sealed the cross pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 i just created the post a few down about my spacer....i was just gonna show you what i did to match those curves on the inside of the flange... Actually I did see your post and was going to ask you how you did that but kept forgetting... so... how did you do that? I'm wondering how you sealed the cross pin? Its just in a tight fitting bushing basically. I was worried about leaks but I set it up like the internal wastegates so hopefully it'll work the same. Pressure will be a little higher on this side of the turbo compared to the other side like the internal gates but I'll find out the hard way. I'm also curious how James sealed his valve, it doesn't look much different but I'm not sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehelix112 Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 I often wondered how on earth james' spacer held up, but that does answer some questions. Look forward to hearing about the results. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TeamNissan Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Actually I did see your post and was going to ask you how you did that but kept forgetting... so... how did you do that? Its just in a tight fitting bushing basically. I was worried about leaks but I set it up like the internal wastegates so hopefully it'll work the same. Pressure will be a little higher on this side of the turbo compared to the other side like the internal gates but I'll find out the hard way. I'm also curious how James sealed his valve, it doesn't look much different but I'm not sure. I would be carefull with it lol. Would hate to have extremely hot, pressurized exhaust gases blowing into your engine bay no? I'm actualy curious to know how it could be sealed, think I will look into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 Ehh... I already have exhaust shooting into the engine bay from bad exhaust studs. I'll be fixing those once I get the engine out though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TeamNissan Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 Haha well it cant be good in any event lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 i had some left over pipe that i got from home depot, it was some thinner walled stuff...i've had it for a while...i section a short piece into 4 pieces...one at each corner...then just filled in the space with some steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted February 17, 2007 Author Share Posted February 17, 2007 That's what I thought it looked like but I wasn't sure. The idea had crossed my mind but I wasn't sure if I could match the radius... and... was just too lazy to check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrayZee Posted February 17, 2007 Share Posted February 17, 2007 So when do we get to see this bad-ass setup? Spool of a stock T3 with the top end of a huge turbo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted February 18, 2007 Author Share Posted February 18, 2007 That's what I'm aiming for... hopefully before the end of the month. I'm going to work my ass off tomorrow on it so hopefully I'll get quite a bit accomplished. If I have enough pipe I should be able to get the turbo set in place and get the crossover pipe welded up. Finish the aftercooler piping and the rest of the exhaust. After that I just need to wait for the headgasket kit to come in so that I can put my 9:1 block with the JDM heads... hooray for a whopping 10 hp or so with euro cams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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