Careless Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Ok, so after browsing around and hearing this and that about all other engine management systems for the RB (this thread is RB specific, with some L28 goodness if it is at all relative, since they're both I6), I think we should finally get a good word on what is and what isn't usefull to RB tunning in the world of EMS and ECU. I'm at work now. But later today, I'm going to post links to the various types of units, so that I can get some feedback about them, and hopefully we can narrow down some of the required details and cool features that each EMS/ECU has. Once that's done, I can make a JPEG or PDF comparison chart, so that you can directly compare them. I think this thread would help a lot of us in the long run. But we'll need some experienced users and some good technical info to compile a good database. I also think that once a month or so, this thread should be cleaned up and revised, as engine electrical is one of the most important parts of having a running car, am I right? I didn't post this in the electrical section, because I think we should focus on the RB family for now, and expand later. If anyone wants to start while I'm at work, by all means. One of my main reasons for trying to start a database is because I constantly hear Wolf, Microtech, Haltech, Motec... But I never hear units that are commonly used in Japan (such as the AEM EMS, HKS F-Con) and units like SDS-Efi or any others coming up in RB discussions, and I think everyone ought to know why... including myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 20, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 20, 2007 I've never been one to say that one EMS is 'Best'. They *all* have their strengths, weaknesses.... and unfortunately bugs. Add to it that they are so complex that the each have their own character. Just like people, some character traits are welcome to some, but unacceptable to others. By now, most of you know I sell/support Wolf3D. Is it the best? No... Neither is Motec, 883, Haltech, SDS, Megasquirt, Electromotive, EFI Technology, Microtech, etc, etc, etc. Not one available system is perfect for everyone (and there never will be). Anyone that tells you one system is the 'Best', doesn't get it. If money/time were of no consequence, I would choose a different system for each specific application/car to take advantage of its individual strengths, per its intended use. This is not a reality for most of us. This is the exact reason I elected Wolf. In my opinion, it has a great combination of features, ease of tuning, flexibility, reliability, and price. Bang for the buck is high. In reality it boils down to this... customer support is KING. If your dealer can make a system work well for YOUR application and needs, then it makes no difference what name is on the side of the box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Ron speaks the truth: If you're going with a shop for tuning I would go with what they are used to or recommend. All standalones can control the afr's and the timing, some will have more bells and whistles. None of that matters if you can't get it tuned properly. If you are a diy tuner, than go with MegaSquirt or the stock Nissan ecu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 Im not disputing what Ron has mentioned here or what you're saying. But that's not what I created this thread for, and I think you two are sort of missing the point in this. A lot of dyno shops are willing to try new tuning software and the hardware that goes with it, but choosing a standalone system that is both cost effective for your goals and has the right feature set is really what I was after here. Not whether it is prefered because of sheer volume of experienced users, rather than volume of features. I'm looking for technical information here. And I'm sure it would be a good catalogue. So lets ditch the "experience thing" until we narrow down the top 5 ECU/ECM's for RB engines in regards to what's beneficial and what's not, as well as price. infact, lets make it 6. 2 high grade 2 mid grade 2 low grade with Megasquirt being the obvious DIY 7th, which we can put into Limbo. Who knows... those who previously were entertained by the thought of using other ECU's than their current setup just to see how they faired would probably be even more so convinced once they find something out that they don't know. ( I dont know whether that's a good or bad thing, considering it means you might have to open your wallet) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 Now, whether you're in on this thread, or not... let's start with some general features that MUST be present on the EMS, or atleast available with slight tweaking that doesn't involve extensive engine modification.... annnnnnnnnnnnd go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pascal Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Hey!^^ May i sugest something professional? I did use for many years on WRC TDD, nowdays know like Walbro TDD, (cause they did join venture) and o mighty MoTec. Did you ever hear that did win any event on WRC someone with Wolf tech or maybe DEFi or maybe or maybe....?? I did not altough we did test like 29 different types of ECU's. Fastest and more advanced are Bosch, TDD, MoTec and Magnetti M. Bosch and MM is not posible to get cause they are only for house property only made and JWRC so remain TDD and MoTec. Just ask what is speed os comathematical and main processor and main plate that should be enough for your choice. I hope i did helped! Best regards Pascal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 22, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 22, 2007 I'm looking for technical information here. And I'm sure it would be a good catalogue. So lets ditch the "experience thing" until we narrow down the top 5 ECU/ECM's for RB engines in regards to what's beneficial and what's not, as well as price. It seems to me that you're looking for three things... 1) Spec sheets. Wolf's specs.... http://www.wolfems.com/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,25/Itemid,48/mode,view/ Wolf's 'Highlights'... http://wolfems.cart.net.au/details/635751.html I'm sure you can easily find the remaining brands you're interested in on their websites. 2) Current retail price on a universal Wolf V500 is approx. $1500 US. I offer a discount to donating members of HybridZ. 3) Requirements for an RB. Bernardd covered that, if indirectly. If your motor goes "suck, squish, bang, blow", virtually any of the available systems will run it. Some will require you to use a different ignition system, alternate sensors, and a custom harness. Some will support sequential injection and ignition, others are batch only. Some will allow individual cylinder tuning. Some are easier to tune (won't find that in the specs.) and so on. But, they all have one thing in common... they are all capable of running the common 4-cycle engine. What features are important to you? As for Wolf, you can buy a "Direct Fit" for an RB. This means unplugging the OEM ECU and replacing it with a fully configured Wolf EMS, compatible with all sensors & ignition system, and includes a base map. Plug it in and turn the key. You will have to fine tune it for your specific installation if you want peak performance. However, I would like to add, these systems are not 'Black & White'. If you are a creative person, it doesn't stop with the spec. sheet. I'll leave you with one example... With Wolf V500, there are 13 auxiliary inputs and 15 to 27 auxiliary outputs. For some people, using the Aux's. to switch on a light upon exceeding a temperature point would tickle them. Maybe you're slightly more sophisticated and would like to see a sequenced shift light. Or, install 3 potentiometers on your dash and use one each for adjusting fuel curves, timing maps, and boost on the fly. Maybe your perfectionist nature takes over, and you decide to install a fuel temp sensor and use it to modify fueling, timing, boost, etc., or limit RPM because oil is not up to temp yet. How about pulse width modulated water or meth injection? Generally speaking, idle quality, fuel economy, and emissions are improved when an injector is nearest the intake valve... but HP is typically improved moving it further away. How about two sets of injectors, running blended or RPM switched? There is no end to the possibilities. How creative are you? Maybe you'll pioneer a new way to use auxiliaries? My point is, I have know idea how a person lists all the possible capabilities of a system (read technical limitations), when they have not all been invented yet. EMS systems are significantly influenced by the character of the installer/tuner, not just the spec. sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 22, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 22, 2007 Just ask what is speed os comathematical and main processor and main platethat should be enough for your choice. From Wolf's website RE:V500.... "Latest 32 bit processor running at 40MHz with Dual Time Co-Processors, giving precise sequential delivery of fuel and ignition and supporting all other functions including high speed Datalogging with no performance loss." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted February 24, 2007 Author Share Posted February 24, 2007 Ron, That's sort of what I'm trying to compile here. a list of the amount of in's and out's and options each EMS has. you mention all these aux inputs and such, but im sure each of the mentioned ECU's has that. but which one has better features to take advantage of those is what I'm asking. are you basing what you've said on the WOLF unit? because that sounds quite elaborate compared to say... SDS EFi, which i think has 1/4 of the aux in /out that you mentioned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vashonz Posted February 24, 2007 Share Posted February 24, 2007 If you check out the book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Management-Systems-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760315825/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/002-0930736-2629669 it has a table of all the different features for the different EFI systems. It's a pretty useful book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted February 24, 2007 Author Share Posted February 24, 2007 If you check out the book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Management-Systems-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0760315825/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/002-0930736-2629669it has a table of all the different features for the different EFI systems. It's a pretty useful book. how recent is this book? And after looking at the Haltech E6X, It looks like the Wolf3D is a much more robust unit, by comparing the feature sheets. It's just tuning that would be an issue, but I'm sure any competant dyno tuner willing to learn new things will warm up to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted February 25, 2007 Share Posted February 25, 2007 Anything above and beyond basic afr and timing control needs to be looked at carefully before deciding that it is needed. For instance how many users will buy 6 wideband units for logging each exhaust port? (you have to have bungs installed as well) What about egt's? How about individual cylinder knock sensing? Just buying the sensors adds up, not too mention that you're going to spend hours upon hours at the dyno checking to see what each cylinder likes for timing and afr and egt's. You can also tune by cylinder pressure, but again those sensors are very expensive and don't last for a long time either. Perhaps someone with all the extra features on their standalone (and has used them) could relate their experience at this level of tuning. I have not graduated beyond very basic tuning myself and I am not in anyway saying that extra features are useless or a waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 25, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 25, 2007 are you basing what you've said on the WOLF unit? because that sounds quite elaborate compared to say... SDS EFi, which i think has 1/4 of the aux in /out that you mentioned Yes. you mention all these aux inputs and such, but im sure each of the mentioned ECU's has that. Not necessarily. Some don't have any. Some only have a few. Last time I used SDS it didn't include any and their site doesn't currently list any. Further, some have only remedial control over their aux.'s. Wolf has multidimensional control, i.e, you may choose multiple criteria to be met in order for 'action' too take place (based on virtually any parameter... RPM, air temp, water temp, boost, MAP, TPS, etc, etc.) but which one has better features to take advantage of those is what I'm asking. *That* is the sticky part... First, trying to empirically and indisputably declare which system has the *better* feature set is impossible. For example, I can appreciate individual cylinder tuning. It has value to me. The higher the specific output of an engine and the closer to the ragged edge you run it, the more important this feature is, for both power and, more importantly, reliability. Another example is voltage compensation, not all systems allow you control over this curve. I refuse to own a system that doesn't. Its part of what leads to consistency. Consistency leads to power WITH reliability . If you're trying to squeeze every last drop, these items are important. BUT, If you don't have the means or desire to take advantage of these features, its a waste. Every feature, as Bernardd suggested, falls into this trap. If it doesn't blow your skirt up, its meaningless. I currently have two L28 powered Z's in the shop receiving Wolf transplants. They are both being installed/configured differently, each one ignoring different features, while taking advantage of others. Why? because each owner has a different priority set. Second, 90% of everything you hear about EMS's is opinion based. I have tried to avoid opinion as much as possible throughout this thread. Since your backing me into a corner, I'm going to give you some opinion... Wolf3D is one of the most full featured, flexible, and capable systems available. Money aside, it is a good system. If you factor in cost, I'll pit it against ANY system in its price range. V500 spec's out very well. Its also a delight to tune. It is not without flaws... no system is. However, of all the systems I've jumped in bed with, it has the highest ratio of right-to-wrong I've yet seen. Thats my opinion. You can trust it or discount it, your choice. Of course, the average person will say, "But Ron, its in your best interest to say such things... you stand in a biased position". My response to this is simply, I fell in love with Wolf... and THEN became a dealer. If you force me into giving you a "Black and White" answer... I'll tell you that all the features you need, and more, come in Wolf3D how recent is this book? That is a very good book. And after looking at the Haltech E6X, It looks like the Wolf3D is a much more robust unit, by comparing the feature sheets. I agree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted February 25, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 25, 2007 how recent is this book? And after looking at the Haltech E6X, It looks like the Wolf3D is a much more robust unit, by comparing the feature sheets. That book is fairly recent and a GREAT read. I highly recommend it… I agree, the WOLF is a robust feature packed unit. Bang for the buck and time invested in set up, (“time invested” is in reference to Mega Squirt which I just recently did on my L-28 race car), I personally felt that WOLF was the right choice for my application. I recently purchased the WOLF V500 to use on my Supercharged V-8 and plan to use its 8 cylinder distributorless ignition capability, (8 cylinder sequential and DIS is ONE feature that you have to pay LOTS more for to get with any other system…) Anything above and beyond basic afr and timing control needs to be looked at carefully before deciding that it is needed. For instance how many users will buy 6 wideband units for logging each exhaust port? (you have to have bungs installed as well) What about egt's? How about individual cylinder knock sensing? Just buying the sensors adds up, not too mention that you're going to spend hours upon hours at the dyno checking to see what each cylinder likes for timing and afr and egt's. You can also tune by cylinder pressure, but again those sensors are very expensive and don't last for a long time either. Perhaps someone with all the extra features on their standalone (and has used them) could relate their experience at this level of tuning. I have not graduated beyond very basic tuning myself and I am not in anyway saying that extra features are useless or a waste. Yes, all those features you mentioned do add up in price, but the price of all those extraneous goodies isn’t going to change if you use a different system. If you want all those goodies and sensors for tuning your Formula 1 or Indy car engine, and the system will support them, they will cost, period! If you don’t have the money for all those sensors, then don’t use them. The amount of input and output control available in today’s EMS is staggering and MORE than capable to get your AFR and ignition timing exactly where you want them under pretty much any condition that your engine will be subject to. Also, just because a system will support all those goodies, doesn’t mean that you have to use them. Back in the day, we used to tune withOUT O2 sensors, knock sensors, etc. We used seat of the pants tuning, (i.e. our BUTT DYNO), using a stop watch to record any improvements in how long it took the engine to accelerate the car between a set RPM range over the same section of road, etc. Now whether or not the installer/tuner is competent in interpreting what all those cool sensors are telling the ECU, that is the real trick. I refer you back to Ron Tyler’s statements above. It really boils down to how creative is the installer and his aptitude towards how why the internal combustion engine does its thing, you know, that whole “suck, squish, bang, blow” thing… Also, as Ron stated above, the aptitude of the installer and tuner will dictate just how quick it will be to tune the engine and also, a creative tuner will use as many of the options the system has available, but also keeping in mind the added cost those fancy tuning tools add to the project. Again, it boils down to the aptitude of the installer/tuner. If the installer/tuner doesn’t know what he/she is looking at in regards to the signals produced by all those cool sensors, then those sensors are pretty much worthless. As for individual cylinder knock sensing, this is currently available to the general public, not just F-1 technology any more. Individual cylinder knock sensing utilizes only one knock sensor, the ECU that is listening for that knock signal, (J&S Safe guard is one system that is AWESOME and also compatible and works very well with WOLF), quite EASILY knows when a particular cylinder rang the knock sensor. Next time that cylinder fires, the ECU backs off just that cylinder’s ignition timing. No need for multiple sensors. Also, Bernard, I urge you to pick up that book mentioned above, (linked again below…) written by Jeff Hartman. The information contained within is invaluable to newbie and even the amateurs in Engine Management Systems. http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0760315825/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-6333016-5650544#reader-link Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumnhammer Posted February 26, 2007 Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hey Ron, I recently got the plug in wolf V500 for the RB25DET but have had the worst time finding someone to give me help with it. The old V400 plug in may have come fully set up for the RB but the new V500 just comes with the adapter plug, since it is a universal unit. The plug saves doing any wiring, but what I need help with is initial set up. Think you could help me? I had my friend get this and he got it straight from Wolf in Austraila, had I known that you were a dealer I would have had him get it from you, but whats done is done and I could use a hand getting this puppy set up. Basically I could use some settings and a base map so I can get it running and to the dyno for a solid tune. Chris Rummel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted February 26, 2007 Administrators Share Posted February 26, 2007 Hey Ron, I recently got the plug in wolf V500 for the RB25DET but have had the worst time finding someone to give me help with it. Chris, This is unfortunate. Wolf works very hard at preventing this. Some people seem to slip through the cracks, though. Lets get this taken care of... you've been PM'd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted March 2, 2007 Author Share Posted March 2, 2007 Great info guys. Question about the Wolf, Ron/Paul. Ron had mentioned that you can use in/out puts to control various functions to change various parameters as well. My question is, is it possible to have a secondary controller built specifically to automatically sense an outgoing voltage from the aux out, and decipher the required setting to have the desired effect, and condition the signal so that when it sends it back to the aux input, it is automatically determined by a programmable code in the ECU? lets say i wanted water spray on the IC, as well as Liquid Nitrogen spray on the IC (just bear with me, im trying to think of an easy example, so im using the "dreaming" portion rather than the scientific portion of my brain), depending on what the temperature of the intake air is. so can i set up a secondary control circuit in another little box stashed somewhere... and tell wolf3D that if the temp of the intake is within temp range (A) it will send out a shot of water... and if the temp jumps into range (, the output on the wolf dedicated to this function will change the voltage signal to a higher number, so that the control box i've made can read that higher incoming voltage and adjust its own signal that it sends to the wolf input, and the wolf computer will tell either a second or third output to activate, based on what the control box has fed into the wolf? I KNOW that it's easier to just have the output send it to a control box, or even have the wolf decide the temp and spray charge needed, and then have the control box activate the switch for either spray type, but i'm trying to get a feel for how wild the controls can be... and right now this is what i've thought... sooooo is that something that cna be done with wolf? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators RTz Posted March 5, 2007 Administrators Share Posted March 5, 2007 so can i set up a secondary control circuit in another little box stashed somewhere... and tell wolf3D that if the temp of the intake is within temp range (A) it will send out a shot of water... and if the temp jumps into range (, the output on the wolf dedicated to this function will change the voltage signal to a higher number, so that the control box i've made can read that higher incoming voltage and adjust its own signal that it sends to the wolf input, and the wolf computer will tell either a second or third output to activate, based on what the control box has fed into the wolf? What you’ve asked seems more complex than what I imagine would be needed. For clarification, the primary auxiliary “out’s†will only pull to ground (whereas the inputs are voltage influenced). The PWM outputs will do just that (modulate pulse width). Depending on your “controllerâ€, this can give the perception (or 'average') of a specific voltage. If you're trying to set-up a two stage IC cooler (based on two separate, increasing thresholds, triggering two separate cooling systems), I would use two auxiliaries for this purpose. I understand you’re thinking ‘outside the box’ so I apologize if I have missed your point. Keep in mind that there are many ways to get the same job done. If you have something specific you’d like to accomplish, let me know and I’ll have a go at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted March 5, 2007 Author Share Posted March 5, 2007 What you’ve asked seems more complex than what I imagine would be needed. For clarification, the primary auxiliary “out’s†will only pull to ground (whereas the inputs are voltage influenced). The PWM outputs will do just that (modulate pulse width). Depending on your “controllerâ€, this can give the perception (or 'average') of a specific voltage. If you're trying to set-up a two stage IC cooler (based on two separate, increasing thresholds, triggering two separate cooling systems), I would use two auxiliaries for this purpose. I understand you’re thinking ‘outside the box’ so I apologize if I have missed your point. Keep in mind that there are many ways to get the same job done. If you have something specific you’d like to accomplish, let me know and I’ll have a go at it. yeah you basically hit the nail on the head with what i was decribing. it's way too complex, but i was trying to get a feel for how customizable the unit could be. back to thinking outside the box, i guess what one could do is use two of the ground operated outputs, and set up a control unit that has two inputs for itself, and depending on which ground is fired, it would be able to determine what voltage to feed the input on the other side. but like we both had mentioned, its easier to hook up the powered side to the spraying device, and have the embedded software and processor determine which ground of which output/spraying unit to short. but i'm asking because if this is possible, my dad and i can build advanced addon units that could probably work with the existing computers and be an easy to control side unit that don't require any software intervention, and can do a couple of things that require decisive action that could be upto the user themselves, or automated. this is wrapping the idea in a box and pitching it at baberuth and getting it hit outta the park, but the fact that it has voltage regulated input (now that i think about it, all inputs on any unit probably should be), im starting to realize the multitude of things that i KNOW people who use efi systesm don't take advantage of because they care not to deal with them. Oh, and i bought corky bells book as well as the EFI book listed in this thread as a couple o words to read when im on the bus going to work =) Ron, If awkwikz doesnt have his wolf unit when i need it (since it's already prepared for an RB), you'll be getting a call soon =) I've been looking at some PDF's and compared some units and it looks like a unit that i figured someone should have sworn by up until now. and i guess that's where you come in. LOL. im still working on a megasquirt for a 4agze gone turbo, so that should get me hyped up to do my own =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraz Posted March 6, 2007 Share Posted March 6, 2007 I dont know how popular link ecu's are in the states, but in NZ they are very common. Most of the guys i know in NZ with rb engines are running plug in link computers. You can get a g3 plug in with enough features to make a good road car, and a linkplus g2 with far more features for a few more dollars. They are pretty indestructible and pretty easy to tune. I dont think their newer version has an auto tune feature, but i think it automatically retards the timing a few degrees when knock is detected and remembers where and gives a little chart of where knock was detected. http://www.linkecu.com/ I know a guy with an autronic ecu and he swears by it. It has a million features and can do nearly everything, but its costs a lot more money. Last night we picked up a mates old datsun 2400 with rb30det from tuners and its running a microtech lt-12s. The car is running really well with good cold start and idle control and a few extra outputs for waterspray and stuff. the bloody clutch started slipping at 4200, so it was only tuned to there with 300hp at the wheels and 375ft/lbs with 4.11 diff gears (1psi and just starting to spool) so should go significantly beter with new clutch and retune Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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