question for you ford guys

[grumpyvette]

first please understand I have near zero BRAND LOYALTY, Id build FORDS,MOPARS, PONTIACS or CHEVYS with equal success if the cost and parts availability were nearly equal, and if cost was no object ID build SOHC FORDS and 392 HEMIS over most other engines...

why is it I seldom see guys build the big ford engines?

or more correctly who can afford too!

am I just looking at the wrong suppliers or does it really cost 75%-150% EXTRA JUST TO BUILD A FORD over a CHEVY

yeah Im well aware you can make decent power with the 351 and a turbo,or 4.6 liter basic engines, but they ARE NOT the BIG BLOCKS I like to work on.

now understand I build mostly big block CHEVY,CADDY and MOPAR engines and rarely bother with anything under 396 cid, as its just easier to build serious power if youve got some displacement to work with, Ive built or worked on 390-460-514 fords on occasion,

while my ford experiance is rather limited I have worked on some excellent ford engines and cars, years ago,... none, lately as I rarely see any local guys running them currently. I might have even gotten further involved if it were not for the insane way ford has consistantly made it difficult if not impossiable to aquire parts at a reasonable cost , and discontinued some of the better engines like the ...

boss 429, SOHC 427 come instantly to mind.

as soon as they get a world beating basic engine they drop support and parts became all but impossiable to obtain or priced to insane levels.

 

mopar was slightly better in the parts support and prices area but as IM sure your aware GM and the aftermarket has generally maintained a wider sellection and much better long term support of the GM/CHEVY engine families

I recently priced out the parts necessary to build a 700-800hp BBF, all I can say is YOUR $%$%^^ kidding me!

[Guest Gr8White]

Oh Cmon now, you should be able to pick up a side oiler 427 for less than 20K!!!

 

I think you answered your own question- nobody builds the ford big blocks much so no aftermarket (and the competion that drives prices down) has developed much for them. The small block technology is so good now that it's hard to justify a Ford big block when the small block can make as much power with none of the added drawbacks of a big block (packaging, weight, etc..)

 

I do know of a local guy in my area that deals almost exclusively with the big blocks of the 60's, i.e. 390, 406,427,428,429, etc...This guy is a Galaxie freak and loves the 62 406's.

 

He doesn't do much with the 429/460's....

 

I'll take a 428 Cobrajet myself!!! Oh yeah, throw in a 4 speed too. Yummy.

 

I was visiting awhile back and I think i remember a certain tri-power setup in the corner waiting for a home....

[blueovalz]

Cost and availablility would be my guess as well. One of the most awesome rides I ever had was in an old Falcon with a well built 460 using the 429 Super Cobra Jet heads. My god, you could drop a tennis ball down the intake ports on this monster!

[turbokid]

i hear ya on that.. my uncle is a BB ford maniac.. hes got 3 mercury cyclone spoilers with the 429 cj motors.. and i tell ya those motors are monsters... sooo expensive to build though. you could build 3 SB chevys to 500 hp for the same as a BB ford rebuild... lol

[Guest TeamNissan]

I always wanted to build a 460 like out of the old crown vics but the cost completely turned me off. You would think there would be a better support base considering how many bbf's are out there with good power right out of the box, Idk.......

[Paz8]

It would be cheaper and easier to build a 400 cube engine with a stroked 351W block, alumium SBF heads, etc., lighter also. I too miss the ford big blocks, I put a 390 in a 56 ford vicky, my first ride. The dual quad 427's are to me the best big block ford ever built.

[randy 77zt]

in the ford off road race trucks they are using 351w based engines bored & stroked to 427.ford 351 has taller deck than sb chevy.so unless you need a 500+ cube motor the 351w based motor will power a light car very well.351w parts are almost as common as chevy parts.

[axman61]

The Fords are expensive. But..True story here; My ex-brother-in-law bought a surplus GBI (Georgia Bureau(?) of Invst.) Mercury back in ahhhhh....about 1984 I think. It was an early '70's model with a 429 Interceptor. It had a calibrated speedo and I was in that car when it shifted from second to drive at 90mph and barked the tires. I was impressed. Those BB Fords can really do it.

[Spraguepsycho1]

I used to give my Chevy loving friends a hard time when they would ask me why Ford engine parts were so expensive compaired to parts for Chevy's. I use to tell them "It's because if you build a Ford engine right the first time, you never have to buy most of those parts again" lol. If I could find a '69 or '70 bigblock Mustang that I could afford to buy, I would love to build the engine up, but the prices for any of the old bigblock musclecars seems to be rediculous anymore. Building a bigblock to use as a transplant into another car of no collector value just seems to be impractical anymore since as mentioned above a small block can make plenty of usable power without having to deal with the size/weight issues, not to mention usually most built small blocks seem to get better gas mileage than even stock big blocks do. I'm hoping to get my hands on one of Fords new 396 Windsor crate engines sometime within the next year or so to drop into my '65 Mustang coupe.

[jgkurz]

As I'm sure you know, building a "reliable" 800HP engine is much different than building a 800HP big block that is only good for a trip or two to the drag strip. I too am "brand neutral". I think almost every manufacturer has engines that are/were excellent and some that were less desirable. The BBC is the king for making big power on the cheap, but I contend that once you start making 800HP and above that the cost evens out. My father builds 427 side-oilers that use almost all after-market parts. Even the blocks are aluminum after-market. At that level it's my opinion that it'll cost you big $$$ no matter what brand you choose.

[WizardBlack]

As I'm sure you know, building a "reliable" 800HP engine is much different than building a 800HP big block that is only good for a trip or two to the drag strip. I too am "brand neutral". I think almost every manufacturer has engines that are/were excellent and some that were less desirable. The BBC is the king for making big power on the cheap, but I contend that once you start making 800HP and above that the cost evens out. My father builds 427 side-oilers that use almost all after-market parts. Even the blocks are aluminum after-market. At that level it's my opinion that it'll cost you big $$$ no matter what brand you choose.

 

Yep, because as you say, about the only thing still Ford or Chevy left on the setup is the thermostat neck or the idler pulley.

[cobra]

Oh Cmon now, you should be able to pick up a side oiler 427 for less than 20K!!!

 

I think you answered your own question- nobody builds the ford big blocks much so no aftermarket (and the competion that drives prices down) has developed much for them. The small block technology is so good now that it's hard to justify a Ford big block when the small block can make as much power with none of the added drawbacks of a big block (packaging, weight, etc..)

 

I do know of a local guy in my area that deals almost exclusively with the big blocks of the 60's, i.e. 390, 406,427,428,429, etc...This guy is a Galaxie freak and loves the 62 406's.

 

He doesn't do much with the 429/460's....

 

I'll take a 428 Cobrajet myself!!! Oh yeah, throw in a 4 speed too. Yummy.

 

I was visiting awhile back and I think i remember a certain tri-power setup in the corner waiting for a home....

 

 

all you have to do is page through jegs and you can find every thing you need to make a 460 put down over 500hp and 500ft-lbs easily and thats just jegs

[Gollum]

I know I know, bringing a thread back from the dead.

 

I've been doing some research on the Ford 385 series big blocks though and seeing this thread got me thinking "so what's so expensive about building them", because from what I've seen the prices aren't that bad.

 

It seems most of the cost is in the machine work. Aftermarket heads are the same price as small block ford parts. Intake manifolds are similarly priced as well. Exhaust manifolds aren't much different.

 

An article I found the other day shows the build of a 429 into a 533 and they used a crank with BBC chevy journal sizes, so they were able to use over the counter BBC rods and pistons as well (4.44" bore). It was obviously the full works machine work. Bore work done, deck leveled, etc. This seems like it would be the largest factor in any build.

 

The 385 series seems like a nice engine to build too. Sure you can make a 351W into a 427, but at what cost? How high will it rev? How much power can the block handle until ring wear becomes unreasonable due to the short rods? The 385 block can handle huge amounts of stroke until the stroke/rod ratio becomes nasty.

 

So I guess I'm not helping the origonal post much, other than just saying I don't see them being THAT much more expensive, if done right.

[Torkair]

The main problem with the BBF parts is that the more main stream part suppliers like Edlebrock make sub par parts for more than double the cost of what they should be, then you happen to dig up a set of Kaase Boss 9 heads and you suddenly need to change your undies! You have to dig through all the rubbish parts before you get to the cream of the crop when it comes to the Fords, and you'll usually find that the more amazing and less talked about parts are cube for cube, dollar for dollar, better than the almost anything you can find for a dodge, chevy, amc, or what-have-you. You just gotta be willing to look for them!

[Turbo7MN]

It's no secret that building hp with Fords is more expensive than with Chevy.... why do you think so many people put SBC and BBC motors in everything, other than lack of creativity that is.

[Torkair]

The reason it's cheaper to go Chevy is because the MASSIVE availability of parts and the competition amongst the part makers has driven the cost of some parts down, whereas the Fords have been largely ignored. A prime example is the Edlebrock aluminum Cleveland heads, @ Nearly $2000 for a pair of heads you get bare heads that are no better then a set of cleaned up old school iron heads. Then you "find" CHI 3v heads for the same price that come all assembled and are completely C&C machined as well as offering better port and chamber geometry, the down side to these heads is that due to the relocated and improved ports you also need a special intake which is produced and provided by CHI and can be ordered to fit a 351 Cleveland block, 302 block, 351 Winsor block, and finally this years Engine Masters champion the 351M/400 block.

[Trevor]

I can only think of three "niche" markets that traditionally go with big block Ford engines.

(352, 390, 427, 428, 429, 460)

 

* 1960's retro-factory-drag replicas like the Thunderbolt based on Fairlane and Galaxie platforms,

 

*1967-73 Mustang resto-rodders, and

 

*Cobra replicas.

 

Even combined, I think the numbers of guys building their own cars is too small to demand a low-cost supply from the mass-market performance parts manufacturers.

[Torkair]

The 352, 390, 427, and 428 are all FE motors and are inherently insanely expensive due to the low availability of the blocks as well as all of the "fuss" involved with building and maintaining one of them, detonation being one of the key factors with those motors. Then there's the 429 and 460, these motors can be found in almost any car or truck from 72 and up and, except in a few cases, were mostly work horse motors and can be swapped into almost any ford RWD chassi and a few FWD ones as well, my personal favorites being the 1970-79 rancheros and the '70-'72 Torino/Gran Torino. Also the Fox mustang guys like throwing all kinds of things under the hood of their little cars and the SN95 'stangs can easily be swapped to a BBF without even cutting the inner fenders (although the car had better be reinforced if you want it to make more than 1 pass down the strip).

 

If you want to know everything there is to know about fords, new and old, you should check out http://www.fordmuscle.com/forums just be ready to do ALOT of reading.

[Michael Yount]

It's relatively straightforward to build up to 430 (or so) cubes starting with the 9.5" Windsor block (351) and adding the stroker kit. Power levels are comparable with the old big blocks; parts are less expensive; and the motor is much lighter when equipped with similar materials for heads, intake, etc. Not sure why anyone would want to go with one of the old school big blocks unless you just like 'em. And if you do - go for it.

[jgkurz]

It's relatively straightforward to build up to 430 (or so) cubes starting with the 9.5" Windsor block (351) and adding the stroker kit. Power levels are comparable with the old big blocks; parts are less expensive; and the motor is much lighter when equipped with similar materials for heads, intake, etc. Not sure why anyone would want to go with one of the old school big blocks unless you just like 'em. And if you do - go for it.

 

Like with a small block, big blocks now can be stroked and bored well past their original size. With a big block you have the exterior size and weight penalty, but you can still maintain a safe bore thickness and rod/stroke ratio at huge cubic inches. A small block at say 460ci has bragging rights, but due to extreme bore sizes and other factors may not be ideal for any type of endurance, boosted or high RPM use. The other problem with big blocks is the cost. If you want to build a huge block stroker motor you will arguably pay twice as much as a small block. In the end, you could have an 800hp big block that runs on 93 octane pump gas. Take a look at the latest Hot Rod mag for reference. Try that with a small block... NOT.

 

BTW, a boosted stroker Windsor is the next motor project for my 77z....

 

This is what I'm saving up for...

http://www.dartheads.com/products/engine-blocks/ford-blocks/ford-aluminum-blocks.html