Catastophic Failure and other weird post-break-in stuff - 383 Stroker

[389Z]

 

OK - Some weird things have happened since the initial break-in and want to document here so when I get all the rework done I don't have to repeat again. I don't think we did anything wrong, but the outcome makes me question otherwise. Please weigh in with comments. This is kind of long (as my threads often are), but a fair amount of bugs all at once...thanks in advance for any help/advice.

 

10.5:1 flat-tops and our colletive build team does not have any experience here so this may be problem #1. We used two breathers because the chrome top of the engine looked too nice to add a PCV valve and I didn't want to start sucking in oily emmissions into my pristine engine...Could this have cause pressure build up that led to the following two events? BTW, the oil psi never exceeded 65.

 

1. Oil leak through the rear RTV bead of the intake manifold. We prepped the front and back seals with 409 to remove oil etc. from the surface an place an ample bead of RTV on the front and back that squished out nicely about 1/8 of an inch out, but still had seepage leaks despite retourquing the intake bolts twice before the break-in.

 

2. The crank seal behind the dampener somehow worked partially out and was spewing oil out behind the dampener. It was a new seal that came with the timing chain cover kit ans was tapped in flush, but the polished billet timing chain cover we used/installed had the seal channel bored straight through the cover, instead of the recessed nested groove of the stamped steel cover we had before. This allows the oil pressure to press directly against the seal, which I am assuming the designers of the product took into consideration and would not be a problem, but I am just noting the difference. The new seal we installed seemed to be very tight so who knows, maybe we just got a bunk seal.

 

The last totally crappy thing that has since developed was the following:

 

We set the lash before break-in and all went well. We reset the lash after break-in and #8 exhause rocker required a little more relash than all the rest (not a ton, but a thread or two more), which seemed okay since we are using hydraulic lifters. Then after driving for maybe 10 more miles, we started hearing lifter clatter again so we pulled the valve covers and inspected the lash on #8 which seemed to be needed more lash. The geometry at this point seemed totally out of whack compared to all the rest of the lobes so we figured we either had a bad lifter or something worse. We pulled the lifter, which took considerable effort, but finally came free without having to pry it out and we found that almost a full 1/8 of an inch had been ground off the end and the wear was concave like an upside down spoon as if it had been ground off by a diamond grinder. We have not pulled the cam yet, but I can only imagine that the same damage will be evident there as well. We spoke to Edelbrock (performer RPM cam and lifters came as a kit) and took them through our build and break-in procedure and they are willing to warranty the whole thing and are thinking it is a bad lifter at this point as this is the only lobe that appears to be affected. Talk about crappy luck! Edelbrock is being very cool and will replace all the seals and send us a new cam and lifters. Can anyone think of another reason why/how this could have happened short of a bad lifter?

 

Bill

[GEMINITWIN111]

was it coil binding on #8.just a thought

[jasonZ]

Flat tappet lifters are not actually flat. The end is ground in a slightly convex shape which causes the lifter to spin in it's bore. If the lifter bore is damaged, worn, or just gummed up the lifter may not be able to spin freely and this type of wear could happen quite quickly. Lashing the valve tighter sped up the process but the damage was already done. Glad to hear Edelbrock is standing behind their product.

[v80z]

Let us know how the tear down goes and what you find. Keep us posted.

[Paz8]

I wouldn't run that engine anymore, all that metal is now in the filter or at the bottom of the oil pan, take the oil pan plug out and look at the inside end for metal shavings or dust. If your intended use for the car is for street driving install a PVC valve or you will be fixing oil leaks for ever. Check the push rod on that bad lifter to make shure it's not bent. Your right about the bad luck, that sucks.

[grumpyvette]

first ID point out that 409 leaves a film, you degrease with acetone or toluene on a clean rag.

next it sounds like the wrong seals were used, youll need to get a one piece synthetic oil pan gasket and the correct rear seal installed correctly and lightly oiled (read instructions)

EDELBROCK cams are old tech, but that didn,t cause the failure, CLEARANCE or VALVE TRAIN GEOMETRY ISSUES or lack of lube is far more likely

 

read these

 

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=article&id=2

 

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=faq&id=1

 

 

 

 

heres a check list

 

a few things that should always be checked on an engine build

 

heads

are the pushrods perfectly strait?

do the pushrods flow oil?

rocker studs/guides torqued correctly?

do the head bolts have washers under the bolt heads? are they the correct length for the cylinder heads in use?

have the heads been pocket ported?

combustion chambers unshrouded?

intake ports gasket matched"

are the valve guides cut to the correct length?

what are the valve to valve guide clearances?

are the heads pocket ported?

is the retainer to valve guide clearance correct?

are the valve guide oil seals installed?

is there valve spring seats installed?

inner damper springs installed?

spring bind height checked? (to exceed max valve lift by .050 min.) ON EVERY SPRING?????

oil return holes cleaned of casting flash?

were steam holes in heads necessary?

were the spark plug threads of a installed spark plug extending into the combustion chamber?

rocker slot to rocker stud clearances ?

retainer to valve guide clearances?

spring bind height checked for the correct spring pressure?

valve lash/preload ?

are the valve springs the correct tension,height?dia.

keeper the correct angle? style? size?

valve seats the correct angles?

valves back cut?

valves the correct length, stems the correct diam.

strait?

are the seat angles correct?

rockers the correct ratio?

were the valve to valve guide clearances checked (CAREFULLY)?

were the heads milled?

did the head gasket overlap the bore?

what are your valve train clearances?

is the rocker arm geometry correct!

chambers CC,ed

did you check the piston to valve clearances?

port work..(some steps optional)

 

(1) open throat to 85%-90% of valve size

(2)cut a 4 angle seat with 45 degree angle .065-.075 wide where the valve seats and about .100 at 60 degrees below and a .030 wide 30 degree cut above and a 20 degree cut above that rolled and blended into the combustion chamber

(3)blend the spark plug boss slightly and lay back the combustion chamber walls near the valves

(4)narrow but dont shorten the valve guide

(5) open and straiten and blend the upper two port corner edges along the port roof

(6) gasket match to/with intake and raise the port roof slightly

(7) back cut valves at 30 degrees

(8) polish valve face and round outer edges slightly

(9)polish combustion chamber surface and blend edges slightly

(10) remove and smooth away all casting flash , keep the floor of the port slightly rough but the roof and walls smoothed but not polished.

(11) use a head gasket to see the max you can open the combustion chamber walls

(12) blend but don,t grind away the short side radias

 

 

block

is the oil pump pick-up mounted 3/8"-1/2" from the oil pan floor/

is the windage screen mounted about 1/8" from the rotateing assembly/

is the pick-up brazed to the pump body?

has the oil pump relief piston in the oil pump been checked for free ,easy movement? clearance? spring tension?

is the oil pump pick-up tube inserted too far into the oil pump body,(binding the gears)

has the block been clearanced for the rotating assembly?

has the block been aline honed?

is the crank strait?

are the damper install keyway and threads ok?

counter weights clearanced?

MAGNAFLUXED?

OIL PASSAGES CLEANED?

GALLERY PLUGS INSTALLED CORRECTLY?

has the cam to rod bolt clearance been checked?

piston to valve clearances checked?

piston to bore clearances?

TRUST BEARING CLEARANCE?

what were the piston ring to slot clearances?

RING GAPS?

were the rings all checked individually for end gap in the cylinders they were used/installed in?

were the rings checked to make sure the correct side faced up, and the correct ring was in each groove?

what were the back clearance on the rings?

were the oil ring expanders carefully fitted for correct drag?

were the oil ring scraper ring rails checked for end gap?

total cam lift and remaining clearanceS?

WAS THE CAM DEGREED IN?

main bearing clearances?

what is the main bearing run-out clearance

piston to head clearance? (QUENCH?)

head gasket to coolent holes checked?

magnets installed?

rod bolt to block clearances?

what tq reading is necessay to spin the crank with no rods attached?

are the rod bolts and main caps torqued correctly? (rod bolts checked with a bolt stretch gauge?)

did you check the block for a strait main cap alignment?

what size journals and what were the bearings edge to filet clearance??

are the journals checked for finish and run-out/tapper?

did you use moly lube to assemble?

correct bearing crush?

did you pre-lube before start-up?

did the distributor gear fit the cam gear precisely?

was the distributor oil flow mod done?

was the correct style distributor gear used?

did you check the piston to piston pin bores for fit and clearance?

did the piston pins to snap ring clearance seem overly tight?

if they are pressed pins were they correctly matched and checked for free movement in the pistons?

was the engine ballanced?

cam button installed?, and lock plate installed?

were the rods resized? checked for parrallel bores/were the rods strait?

piston valve clearance notchs correctly located on the pistons? edges smoothed?

were the rods checked for length?

is there a few thousands clearance on the oil pump drive shaft AFTER the distributors bolted down?

did you install a steel collar on the oil pump drive shaft?

was the rod to piston pin side clearance checked? (at 4 places seperated bye 90 degree spots)

does the oil pump drive shaft mid section clear the block with the pump installed?

whats the starter to flywheel gear clearance?

is the pilot bearing to trans imput shaft clearance ok?

is the front motor mount bolt to fuel pump pushrod clearance ok? did the fuel pump pushrod move easily/

are you possitive the pistons were installed with the correct valve relief in the correct location?(eiieeiie) were the pistons installed with the correct side facing forward/

what torque values were used on all fasteners/ were they the correct length and type bolts?

were the bores honed with a torque plate in place?

was the cylinder finish correct for the type rings used?

was the oil pump itself checked for free spin and clearance AFTER THE PICK-UP WAS INSTALLED?

was the cam drive checked for free rotation and drag/

were the oil passage plugs drilled for extra oil flow?

were the lifter bores checked?

cam to timing cover clearance?

cam journal to cam bearing clearances?

was the cam journal run-out checked?

was the cam degreed in or just lined up useing factiory index marks?

has the rod and windage screen to oilpan clearnce been checked?

does the dipstick & tube clear the windage screen?

was the cam lobes/LSA/LIFT CHECKED?

is the deck square/level?

whats the cross hatch hone angle?

what grit hone was used? is it correct for the rings used?

are all the threads clean/clear?

brass freeze plugs installed?

block painted?

a few things to check

 

are the connecting rods installed with the beveled edge facing out on each pair with the bearing installed with the bevel facing out on both the lower and upper rod bearings also?

 

are you using beveled bearing shells that match the cranks throw bevels?

 

what are the bearing clearances? (are they the same checking at 90.120.160 degrees from the first measurement?}

 

what are the connecting rod side clearances?

 

is the crank strait? has it been turned undersize? if so...on ALL the rods? on ALL the mains? or on ALL the BEARINGS JOURNALS OR ONLY SOME?

 

whats the TRUST BEARING CLEARANCE?

 

is the piston side clearance correct?

 

are the pistons installed in the correct cylinders? (intake and exhaust notches correctly located to match the cylinder head)

 

are you POSSITIVE each main cap is in the correct location and FACING THE CORRECT DIRRECTION?

 

did you use MOLY assembly lube?

 

did you check EACH INDIVIDUAL RING ON EACH PISTON for ring gap clearance,AND that the rings fit the piston ring slots correctly? are any rings installed in the wrong ring slots (2nd ring in top slot ETC,)or upside down

 

do the rings have back clearance?

 

were the cylinders CORRECTLY HONED?

 

is the cam drive binding?

 

does the crank contact the windage screen?

does the dipstick tube or dip stick touch the crank at any point?

 

is the oil pump /cam gear binding?

 

did you check that the oil pump mounting bolt does NOT contact the back surface of the rear main BEARING under the main cap?

 

is the block warped, checked carefully?,was it line honed?

 

 

are the piston pins centered? do the pistons rotate thru an arc with little resistance?

 

are there any lock pins, spirolocs, tru-arcs contacting the cylinder walls?

 

are you sure the bearing shells are installed correctly and the locating tabs are in the correct slots?

are they the correct bearings for the application? or did you just assume the part guy knew what he was doing?

did you MEASURE or GUESS, did you at least use Plastigauge and a torqure wrench?

 

 

did you check EACH AND EVERY journal for tapper and roundness

 

did you get the rotateing assembly ballanced???

 

be sure you check clearances carefully, a mistake can and will damage the engine, DON,T GUESS

most people tend to tell me Im wrong about that untill they try it both ways yeah the differance is usually minor but five to 10 thousands differance is not rare if the parts are clean and dry versus sprayed with an oil mist first check to make sure that you are measureing correctly, many times the valve actual has more clearance in the flycut clearance notches,or only the very edge of the valves head and the edge of the notch are close and very minor cutting with a tool fitted in a valve guide will clear the problem and the valve has more clearance than measurements taken from the pistons upper surfaces, and that the head gasket thickness and valve train geometry are correct,

check if changing the cam retard/advance or installed possition can be changed to increase the clearance to 0.100 minimum on both the intake and exhaust valves (MOST LIKELY TO WORK WITH THE LEAST PROBLEMS)

 

add a thicker head gasket? ( BUT THAT TENDS TO RUIN QUENCH AND DOES NOT TEND TO BE A GREAT CHOICE ON MOST ENGINES)

[tannji]

Jesus.... THAT is a Grumpy post if I ever saw one....! Just printed it out to hard copy, TYVM = )

[Sumo]

I hope everthing turns out ok keep us updated on went wrong.

[lbhsbZ]

As for the oil leak problem, here's a couple of things to check. Check the breather grommets to make sure that they actually had holes in them. There are 2 styled that I've seen...some are just a simple grommet with a big hole all the way through, and some have a closed end so you can cut your own hole. I usually use these and cut 3 or 4 slits through it so it acts as a baffle, but will let any positive pressure out. I've also had a set of MR-Gasket style breathers that didn't have the bottom punched out like they were supposed to. Clean the breathers off and try to blow through them. There should be no restriction.

 

There should be no oil pressure against any seal....just against the bearings. Your timing cover and seal are fine, so long as they fit together and are in decent shape.

 

PCV valves are not necessary if the breathers are functioning correctly. I've found that I usually need to make some type of baffle so the breathers allow oil to come out of the engine....there is a lot of oil slingin' around under the valve covers. PCV valves will just suck the oil into the motor, a properly baffled breather will allow the pressure to come out, but keep the oil in.....that is the goal.

 

As for the cam issue. The rule that I've always followed with Hydraulic lifters is this:

 

Upon engine assembly, spin the pushrod between your fingers, wiggling it up and down a bit as you tighten the rocker nut. you wiggle it to make sure it is still centered in the rocker and lifter. When you run out of play, tighten the nut slowly until the pushrod stops spinning freely. This is Zero Lash. The cam manufacturer will generally require somewhere between 1/4 - 1 full turn past Zero Lash. After it is set, it should require absolutely no adjustment for life of the cam. Put the valve covers on. Before starting the engine, fill the carb with fuel, crank on the idle screw so it will idle around 2K, prime the oil pump, double check the timing, and fire it up. Let it run for 15 minutes or so at 2000RPM.

 

Either it was adjusted incorrectly in the first place, or incorrectly the second time, which led to the failure of the #8 lifter and cam lobe.

[389Z]

Thanks much to everyone, especially Grumpy for all the great information and tips. I have printed out for the next break-in. I did purchase a balanced Eagle rotating assembly and a large shop (Wells Racing) in Dallas did all the clearancing and short block work so I may never know the answers to some of Grumpy's great short block questions, but they do most of the work for the pro circle and straight track guys around here so I assume all is well there. I never got a printout of exactly what was done or where all the tolerences ended up, but I will check back with them to see if there is some kind of documentation. The entire engine short of the block was brand new and we used Edelbrocks Performer RPM matched cam and lifter kit, with Comp Cam 3/8" pushrods at +.100 (Edelbrock recommendation) and brand new Edelbrock Performer RPM aluminum heads, matched Felpro gaskets, the spark plugs recommended by Edlebrock, and Calpro Tall valve covers with baffles and the matching breathers which were venting, but I never tried to blow through them so I will check that.

 

We set the lash exactly as described (twirling between fingers until they stopped and then one full turn) and then checked them through two full rotations. The only thing we did that might have affected the valve train is we adjusted a few of the pushrod guide plates, as the clearances looked really tight, but we retorqued those and none of them were loose afterwards. I noticed that this adjustment put some of the rollers off dead center, but not anywhere close to having the roller hanging off, just a little off center. I pointed this out to my buddy Javier who has the most engine build experience, and he told me that was not an issue. In my mind that might have put some stress on the lifter to pushrod connection, but the pushrod in question is perfectly straight and unworn. I thought it a little odd that we would be having to make these adjustments on brand new Edelbrock heads right out of the box. I don't think the pushrods would have actually hit the sides of the heads, but it was really close, and we didn't want the aluminum to expand when heated and start rubbing the pushrod, so we adjusted the guides.

 

I'll let everyone know how we come out on round 2, but it will probably be 3-4 weeks before we get the new kit back from Edelbrock. Thanks again,

 

Bill

[jbk240z]

Make sure to carefully inspect the lifter bores. Especially #8, it may have been scarred when you guys had trouble pulling the lifter. I would as already suggested, tear the whole motor down and have the block cleaned again. There is a good chance the oil galleries have metal debris in them. Obviously the only way to clean them properly is a tear down. Anyway, good luck

[389Z]

Update after the catastrophic failure:

 

Well I have to say Edelbrock was totally cool on the warranty of my flat tappet performer rpm cam set. They sent me a brand new cam and lifter set and I spent about an hour on the phone with their tech guys Dave and Dave making sure this would not happen again. I'm sure that we did something wrong as grumpy has suggested, but none of would admit it at the time. It turns out after talking with the Edelbrock crew that we cheated a little on setting the lash and did not follow the Edelbrock instructions completely (opting to go with our previous experience in setting lash, etc). Also, we pre-soaked the lifters in oil which Edelbrock says is a big no no (they even have a special note in the kit speaking to it). I still don't understand why, but again 30 minutes of preparation would have saved two months of aggrevation.

 

Good news. Break-in #2 came off without a hitch and all is right with the world. When all else fails read the instructions!

 

I will have it all ready for the Texas roundup here in a few weeks. Man, what an adventure. I have torn this engine down three times now and I guess the third time is a charm. It runs and sounds fantastic and looking forward to seeing all you guys at the meet.

 

Bill

[Ledphoot]

great deal!!!

 

I too have made a hardcopy of Grumpys post. That thing needs to be a 'sticky"!!!

[TheNeedForZ]

Same here, copied one in the hard drive. Great stuff, great stuff. I too vote for another sticky/faq