What happens when you do THIS for an NA motor?

[Daeron]

I have been in "lurk-mode" on my Z car for over two years now.. more like six or seven if you count the time I spent driving it stock and not doing anything to mod it.

 

I have been patient, because I know how much I do NOT know. My dad and uncle have been driving "perfromance" Zs for 30 years and are well indoctrinated in the "standard" NA, carb'ed Z-car schools of thought.. so I have been trying my best not to learn TOO much from them, since alot of it is obsolete knowledge nowadays... trying to avoid picking up bad habits ("yah, sure, that airbox and exhaust oughta be good for another 30-40 horses!!" type stuff)

 

I have a bone stock 75 280Z.

 

Anyhow, for NOW at least I am not really anticipating a turbo setup. 200 WHP would tickle me pink; I currently have modest goals.

 

My thoughts on building an engine are flattop pistons, stock conronds and crank, and a p90 head shaved 0.080" with the longer valves installed. I have spent alot of time reading and reading about camshafts, and I am aware that the camshaft is going to be key to this motor.

 

My question is basically this:

 

Has anyone ever spent a decent amount of effort and time, putting together an NA motor, FI, standalone engine management, and given themselves a good intake manifold?

 

I honestly believe that I may have a good chance at getting beyond the 170-200 HP bottleneck of the NA motor, by doing something along the lines of a dual stock TB setup on some SU manifolds, or something of that nature. the "su manifold" idea is one that came up last night, and I haven't even looked at the manifold to know if the TB would even come CLOSE to fitting, but I should be able to get a flange welded on if I need to. For the purposes of this post, lets assume the term "SU Manifold" simply means a good manifold for one TB to 3 cylinders.

 

I am basically curious if anyone has done an L28E, NON turbo and removed the bottleneck of the stock 30mm intake port runners...

 

I know I can build a head that will flow well, I know I can find a cam that will flow well, and I know I can make the fuel system flow well.. I am trying to find a "budget" method of getting the air into the motor better than with my stock intake manifold.

 

I figure in the long run I WILL want to turbo this car; so the idea of dumping money into a manifold setup for my NA motor, to me, is identical to "dumping money" into a MS setup for my NA motor. To turbo it in the future, i can just replace it with an uncut P90 or dished pistons, or whatever..

 

*I* just am beginning to think that the stock intake manifold has ALOT to do with all the people saying "if you want more than 200whp, just go turbo"

 

Has anyone proven me wrong already? Has the NA setup been tried with a good intake manifold?

 

I would LOVE to get an LD28 manifold, that would be IDEAL, but I do NOT have on already, and I DO already have all the other parts that would be needed to set up what I've described here... hence the low cost, I would hardly need to buy anything, just mod parts I already have..

 

Thanks for reading the long post, I am trynig to educate myself and just needed to ask a couple of ?s....

[1 fast z]

If you want an LD manifold, Ive got a "few". Shoot me a PM and well talk. As for aftermarket Intakes. Heres one Ive built, and run for three years now.

 

 

 

Daily driven 3.1 liter, that used to run 12.8's in the 1/4 mi, in a 2800 lb 280z. I picked up about 20 more horse with the new cam, so probably mid 12's by now.

[johnc]

http://www.twminduction.com/ThrottleBody/ThrottleBodySU-FR.html

 

[Daeron]

Thanks, it just seemed like all the people focusing on the intake manifold have already taken the turbo plunge as well.... 1 fast z, I was reading the thread from when you got that engine into the car, and there were posts about speed.. but never a dyno post in that thread. do you have a dyno sheet on that motor?

 

regarding the LD manifold, heh, NOT now. Broke, and out of work right now in fact (which is one reason I have so much time to kill reading about my Z on the internet) BUT thank you for letting me know you have "a few."

[BRAAP]

Here ya go. 2 separate projects that both Ron Tyler and myself are involved in. (Me the engine builder/head work and modified OE intake. Ron, EMS and scratch built intake manifold)

 

Both are custom N/A L-28s, stand alone EFI, 6 coil DIS ignition. One is N-42/N-42 getting mild cam and custom scratch built intake and is getting close to initial start up. The other is a F-54/P-79 combo that just left the shop running at about 95% of optimum tune, (just passed tail pipe smog this week), running a cosmetically enhanced OE N-42 intake stock cam and runs much harder now than it did when it came in with the OE EFI and dizzy ign.

 

Custom N-42/N-42 project…

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=117607

 

 

Custom F-54/P-79 project…

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=119783

[Daeron]

AWESOME, thanks a bunch, BRAAP.. will pore over those threads and keep sponging up knowledge.

 

You people kick ass.

 

Am I just jumping the gun in assuming all of these incredible builds are turbo setups?

[BRAAP]

AWESOME,.... Am I just jumping the gun in assuming all of these incredible builds are turbo setups?

 

Nope, these are N/A. 1 fast Z’s very impressive high 12 second street driven 280 Z and the build ups I quoted are all N/A! Not Turbo.

[Daeron]

Nope, these are N/A. 1 fast Z’s very impressive high 12 second street driven 280 Z and the build ups I quoted are all N/A! Not Turbo.

 

 

Honestly it was RonTylers scratchbuilt intake manifold thread that had stimulated that question, becaus eI had already read through it and had assumed it was for a turbo setup while doing so in the past. I am re reading that thread as we speak

[(goldfish)]

What kind of differences are there between n/a and turbo manifolds? Am I wrong in thinking you could get one that would work good for both?

[Daeron]

Oh, yah, to be certain.....

 

The only reason I mentioned it was because MY post was asking if people had tried a good, wide open manifold as a primary concern of building an NA Z. I had assumed that most of the work I had seen on these ITB setups, and more classical type manifolds with larger diameter runners, was being done to be built into a Turbo motor.

 

Its just easy to miss the NA projects that happen here because so many people seem to be universally of the opinion that "turbo is the easiest way to speed" (myself included, honestly.. but easiest isnt necessarily "best," right?)

[SHADY280]

i really wish i could invest that kind of time and money into my car to do things like that. i am very impressed, as i too am an n/a lover. turbo is neat and all, but just not like n/a. ive never even thought of mounting the battery low like that either, and nice to see the ac was kept. that car gonna be at msa this year (07)??

[RTz]

200 WHP would tickle me pink; I currently have modest goals.

 

My opinion is that 200-215 crank HP is going to be about 'it' on an OE manifold. There may be a few that that find more, but I fully expect that a small gain in peak HP will cost a large amount of average HP.

 

Has anyone ever spent a decent amount of effort and time, putting together an NA motor, FI, standalone engine management, and given themselves a good intake manifold?

 

As Braap mentioned... I'm working on it

 

I honestly believe that I may have a good chance at getting beyond the 170-200 HP bottleneck of the NA motor, by doing something along the lines of a dual stock TB setup on some SU manifolds, or something of that nature. the "su manifold" idea is one that came up last night, and I haven't even looked at the manifold to know if the TB would even come CLOSE to fitting, but I should be able to get a flange welded on if I need to. For the purposes of this post, lets assume the term "SU Manifold" simply means a good manifold for one TB to 3 cylinders.

 

I think you're on the right track. An N42 manifold's runner's are about 53% of valve area. Assuming appropriate headwork and cam, I believe the valve could flow nearly 80% of its area... choking it with a 53% runner over 7" long doesn't seem 'useful'.

 

 

I figure in the long run I WILL want to turbo this car; so the idea of dumping money into a manifold setup for my NA motor, to me, is identical to "dumping money" into a MS setup for my NA motor. To turbo it in the future, i can just replace it with an uncut P90 or dished pistons, or whatever..

 

This is where I might disagree with you. If you're looking for 'exceptional' performance with a boosted motor then I believe that a proper intake manifold is just as important turbo as it is NA.

 

Has anyone proven me wrong already? Has the NA setup been tried with a good intake manifold?

 

There are a couple of folks that appear to be giving a good shout on the Lonewolf manifold. It might warrant further investigation.

[Daeron]

 

 

I figure in the long run I WILL want to turbo this car; so the idea of dumping money into a manifold setup for my NA motor, to me, is identical to "dumping money" into a MS setup for my NA motor. To turbo it in the future, i can just replace it with an uncut P90 or dished pistons, or whatever..

 

This is where I might disagree with you. If you're looking for 'exceptional' performance with a boosted motor then I believe that a proper intake manifold is just as important turbo as it is NA.

My intent was not to downplay the importance of the intake manifold on the turbo setups; it merely appeared to me (when the post was originally made, I have seen details I overlooked at this point) that there wasn't enough attention being paid to the manifolds on most NA setups.

 

My comments on "dumping money" into ANYthing was an attempt to make it clear that my plans are to START with the manifold and MS setup, and open things up from there. (head job with a decked P90, injectors, flattop block, and ultimately probably turbo(s) and any accompanying RE modifications)

 

Any and all feedback is appreciated

[Dtsnlvrs]

There was a time in the not so distant past (1998) where a shop in Tacoma, WA (Fairlady Motors) had started to look at the SU manifold. We elongated the holes on two Weber / TWM 60mm TB's and mounted them to the manifold, the next step was to weld injector bungs and fab an intake runner to connect the TB's to a turbo AFM with N/A guts in it (remember 1998...IE no cheap standalone). Sadly, I ran out of talent in a corner one night in the Test Mule (my 72 Z) and the project was shelved, I then moved to Italy, Doug closed the shop only to re-open 4 years later and standalones now abound. Our guess was that my motor with that setup would have easily produced the numbers you seek. As it was we were making about 200hp at the flywheel with a N42/N42 flattop combo with stock (albiet tweeked) 75 FI. The thing I learned most from Doug was to never discount the Ignition and the Exhaust.