Blakt Out Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Hey everyone, Short history: I'm 28. Paid for college restoring 240Zs and selling them, as well as parts. I've had 13, but never could afford to keep one myself. Now, I have a 'real' job and have fully built up a 2006 911, supercharger and all. But I have a hole in my 'car heart'. So I just bought a beautiful, solid 1972 240Z 4speed... totally original, on eBay. No rust whatsoever, and as straight as an arrow. It's the lemon-lime color (which is my all time fave). So. I'm also building a full on, professional grade garage and this car is the first one that I'll build in there. It's going down to the sheetmetal. The interior will be redone just like stock but in leather. I'm going to build a 3.1L stroker and want it naturally aspirated with triples (if that's still the way to go). What's the head to go with with this? E88 still? I really need a refresher course on this. I don't know if I want to build the engine or if I should go to someone else, like JG Engine Dynamics (which was the place to go to before... who now?) So I'm so happy and proud to be a part of this community. Thanks much for the replies ahead of time. Bring me up to speed. How do I go about getting the right parts for this engine. What kind of power can I expect? Rock on. I'll throw up pics of my car when I get it. Also, I'll change my avatar then as well. Jared Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeiss150 Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 where to start! There are so many ways to build up an L28. It doesn't sound like money is a problem for you so build the kind of engine that you've always dreamed about. First answer a few basic questions... 1 N/A or turbo 2. Stock or modified 3. Rear Wheel Horse Power goals 4. race car, drag car, show car, or Sundays on the twistys If you want lots of power from your L28 I would recomend turbo. If you want lots of power but you want to stay N/A then there are a tone of different head and fuel combos for you to play with. My personal favorate N/A set up would be the shaved P90 (or P79) head it gives you 10:1 CR with the best combustion chamber design. You could go with a stock bottom end or you could stroke it (3.0 or 3.1). Turbo is the least expensive way to get power (in the stock formation) easily 200 RWHP just but upping the the stock boost and a few other mods. To get 200 RWHP from a N/A L28 you need lots of porting and pollishing and cams and headers and exausts and distributors and higher compression ratios and so on and so on. Answer the basic questions of what you want to do with your car then we can help you decide on the type of L28 you want to build. I hope this helped, Matt- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naviathan Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 I'm going to build a 3.1L stroker and want it naturally aspirated with triples (if that's still the way to go). Yes, tripples are awesome. I prefer the Webber Tripple Throttle Bodies though, not carbs. You can get the full kit from Top End Performance with all the EFI and Engine Management to boot. (I have this full kit and it ran me around $5400) What's the head to go with with this? E88 still? Nah, I'd go with the P90. It's better flowing and comes with steel seats and valves stock, so there's no need to replace the seats (E88 and others had brass seats because of leaded gas). Not to mention your compression ratio will be high enough with the stroker. I don't know if I want to build the engine or if I should go to someone else, like JG Engine Dynamics (which was the place to go to before... who now?) Rebello Racing, Sunbelt, BRAAP (member here). What kind of power can I expect? A well built, balanced, ported, cammed etc... L31 can produce between 250-300hp. Plenty for having some fun on streets and the occassional run down the track. Don't forget to upgrade the cooling system. Arizona Z Car has aluminum radiators. A bit pricey but well worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 10, 2007 Share Posted April 10, 2007 Javier sold to Edelbrock and doesn't do L6s anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I would recommend taking any and all "ruts" you may have established and just throw them out the door. In the last ten years, the internet community has come to many conclusions regarding Z cars, and to me the most outstandingly loud one is, "It will work if it is done CORRECTLY, no matter what parts you wind up using." There are debates over the primacy of combustion chamber design, but otherwise it has been discovered that as long as you stay within a few reasonable paramters (certain heads are just right out, like the stock Z-car N-47, the later E88 unmodified, etc..) Best advice is to hang out here and read. Click on links, and read read read. These people know ALOT, and no ONE of us knows everything.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNeedForZ Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Javier sold to Edelbrock and doesn't do L6s anymore. I am sorry, but Javier who? Sounds like you meant someone who was doing business selling Z parts stopped doing whatever he was doing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mack Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 depends on your compression needs, but the best head for a high compression would be a Maxima N47, as they have the nice high quench head, but havve a 39CC chamber. good for 11.5:1 on a stock L28 flat top. makes a bit of torque. triples are nice, but int hte last few years, a lot of people are running triple throttle bodies and/or megasquirt. its cheap, its been done many times on L series and the support community is top notch. also, if your looking to get wild, check out the head that 1 fast Z and I are building. DOHC for the L series. just do a quick search on frankenstein or L31DETT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Javier Gutierrez is the "JG" in JG Engine Dynamics (now JG/Edelbrock). Also, Sunbelt is pretty much done building L6 engines and are focusing on their Spec Miata, BMW Motorsports, and Nissan Motorsports build contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 "where to start! There are so many ways to build up an L28. It doesn't sound like money is a problem for you so build the kind of engine that you've always dreamed about. First answer a few basic questions..." Well, money always is an issue, but in the whole idea of this, I'm pretty open. I can do some crazy stuff quickly if it's what I end up wanting. Modding these cars will be much cheaper than the fully modded 911 that I have, you know? The P-car really took the whole shock value out of the cost of modifications. 1 N/A or turbo I really want to stay N/A. I can't really tell you why, other than that I want to keep the interior the same (no boost gauges and such) as well as the driving experience. I've done the 350V8 in a Z before, and it wasn't my cup of tea. So I want to make the most out of an L6. 2. Stock or modified Completely modified. Just as long as it's an L6 from a Z or Maxima and looks really clean under the hood, I'm good. 3. Rear Wheel Horse Power goals I don't really know. I was really working from the idea of making the most reliable, streetable, N/A Hp out of the L6 that I can. Maybe around 250-325??? 4. race car, drag car, show car, or Sundays on the twistys Sundays on the twisties would be the best answer out of these choices. Honestly, it's really a 'closure' thing for me. I used to be addicted to these cars, but never could afford to do for myself what I really wanted. I want something really special. If I end up with $50k in this car, it would be worth it for me. I also don't want to go so far that it won't run on 93 octane, overheats, or doesn't like to start in general. If you want lots of power from your L28 I would recomend turbo. If you want lots of power but you want to stay N/A then there are a tone of different head and fuel combos for you to play with. As I said, no turbo. I just took my NA new 911S and boosted it. Don't want to do it to both cars. My personal favorate N/A set up would be the shaved P90 (or P79) head it gives you 10:1 CR with the best combustion chamber design. I love high compression. You could go with a stock bottom end or you could stroke it (3.0 or 3.1). Stroke it for sure. I hope this helped, Matt- Thanks so much, Matt. It did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Yes, tripples are awesome. I prefer the Webber Tripple Throttle Bodies though, not carbs. You can get the full kit from Top End Performance with all the EFI and Engine Management to boot. (I have this full kit and it ran me around $5400)Rock on. This sounds great. I always had a ton of trouble keeping DCOEs all in sync. I'm game for that. Nah, I'd go with the P90. It's better flowing and comes with steel seats and valves stock, so there's no need to replace the seats (E88 and others had brass seats because of leaded gas). Not to mention your compression ratio will be high enough with the stroker. Wow. How things change. I have a bunch to learn. Rebello Racing, Sunbelt, BRAAP (member here). So how do I get in touch with these guys to get the whole thing ordered? i guess I should go through one of them for the whole thing to work well, including intake, EFI, etc. I want to keep the stock engine (which only has like 40k total on it) on a stand, all polished up in the garage for coolness. So I'll essentially be buying the whole kit and kaboodle from someone. I inititally thought that I would build it myself, but there's been such an advancement in engine tech and knowledge on these since I got out of Zs that I know when I'm not up to the task ahead. BRAAP, if you read this, please PM me. A well built, balanced, ported, cammed etc... L31 can produce between 250-300hp. Plenty for having some fun on streets and the occassional run down the track. Don't forget to upgrade the cooling system. Arizona Z Car has aluminum radiators. A bit pricey but well worth it. Absolutely. Thanks much guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 I would recommend taking any and all "ruts" you may have established and just throw them out the door. In the last ten years, the internet community has come to many conclusions regarding Z cars, and to me the most outstandingly loud one is, "It will work if it is done CORRECTLY, no matter what parts you wind up using." Ruts fully thrown out the door now. I ain't building this thing myself any more. I'm not trying to use any parts that I have. I'm going for the best-case-scenario here. There are debates over the primacy of combustion chamber design, but otherwise it has been discovered that as long as you stay within a few reasonable paramters (certain heads are just right out, like the stock Z-car N-47, the later E88 unmodified, etc..) Best advice is to hang out here and read. Click on links, and read read read. These people know ALOT, and no ONE of us knows everything.. Read, read, reading... Thanks to all. Any other thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 depends on your compression needs, but the best head for a high compression would be a Maxima N47, as they have the nice high quench head, but havve a 39CC chamber. good for 11.5:1 on a stock L28 flat top. makes a bit of torque. triples are nice, but int hte last few years, a lot of people are running triple throttle bodies and/or megasquirt. its cheap, its been done many times on L series and the support community is top notch. I'm into that. I saw a pic of some dudes red 240Z and he had a carbon intake plenum or something that looked incredible. It even had a manufacturer's name on it, like it was something I could buy. Anyone know anything about it? also, if your looking to get wild, check out the head that 1 fast Z and I are building. DOHC for the L series. just do a quick search on frankenstein or L31DETT. Wow. Are you serious? That's killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubbleguinea Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 talk to james at lonewolf performance...hes makes sweet, cheap EFI manifolds that help out a lot... ive got one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
COZY Z COLE Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 Here's a couple reads... http://www.geocities.com/zgarage2001/engine.html http://www.geocities.com/jasonparuta/ LARRY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 here is the FAQ table of contents.. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=103836 and the Ultimate NA L-sreies Thread http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=116680 Two good starts. Honestly (it hurts to say this) you may well dump 15 grand into an incredible NA motor, but I believe the general consensus is that you will not get much higher than 225-250 whp out of it. I want to believe differently, and alot of people do, but the numbers speak for themselves. Not trying to sway you on the turbo decision, but you do need to know the facts, and the facts seem to be that there arent many people with an NA dyno sheet that sees as high as 275. Anyone here care to prove me wrong?? I know LOTS of people have had very high pricetag motors built by rebello and sunbelt, only to be dissappointed in the power output versus cost.. Lets just say that you will certainly NOT be the first "die hard" NA guy who winds up getting convinced to turbo, should that happen. (myself would be included on that list, if i had any cash to play with) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 Ok. So I've read every word that each of you have put up here for me to read. Thanks much. I've also read about this guy named Todd Kaneko who's built an incredible car... and it's a turbo. Here's the link. http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/tur0801a01_1972_nissan_datsun_240z/ Have you all seen this? This seems like what I would consider. I know it's a turbo, and I just said I wanted NA, but after reading all the things you all have sent me to read, the HP is just so low, honestly. I mean, I don't have to have something CRAZY, but I might be interested in a deal like this. I have my other car for CRAZY (474RWHP, 11.45 1/4, and prob 200+mph) and this was just to get that 'pure' feeling of the Z. I just don't know what to do with this now. Thoughts? I don't know. I mean, I remember them being fast and fun, and quite a handful in the rain! I don't know if I need 300+HP. I guess I just have some soul searchin to do... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 when you say your building a professional grade garage will it be for business or pleasure? Honestly, I do love the L6 but if I had some cash to spend I would build a NA RB30DE with triple throttle body injection and high compression running E85. Of course this is a bit of a personal preference as the high strung NA L6 is getting a bit tired. While I'm not raggin on the L6 at all, as I know its a can be a powerful performer, but its not exciting visually exciting to me. Now a DOHC NA RB series would blow me away if I saw that under the hood of a subtly modified 240Z. good luck with your project, you have some tough decisions to make (wish I was in your shoes!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blakt Out Posted April 11, 2007 Author Share Posted April 11, 2007 The garage is for personal use, but I will have a mechanic working in it 40 hours a week on 'my' cars. I'm going to buy one car at a time, maybe 2, restore them as I like (with all the modern touches) and then put the cars in storage or sell them as I need to. I think it'll be a good investment technique... at least that's what I use to get my conscience over the hump! As for the RB, just how much money would something like that cost??? Any idea? And, as far as being in my shoes, you, my friend, are in TUSCANY! That's the place to be! Where are you, exactly? Firenze? Sienna? My wife and I love it there, SO much. Chianti! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted April 11, 2007 Share Posted April 11, 2007 I'm in Arezzo currently but make regular trips to Sienna and Firenze, after all, its as easy as hopping on a train. As far as the cost of a NA RB goes, I would have no real clue. From what I've gathered during my research in order to satisfy my own personal curiostiy on such things its not cheap. I would hate to mention a ridiculously high number and scare you off, or to mention a stupidly low number and unlease a high $ surprise later on. I know that the boys down under have been doing it for years and doing it very well so I would start there. Also, lately there have been a few threads on NA RB30s, and what it takes to make good power with them so a few searches here might answer some of your initial questions. It is easy to see from a purely technical point that the RB is superior to the L6. More air=more power and its dead sexy to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeiss150 Posted April 12, 2007 Share Posted April 12, 2007 I vote for turbo, having built a N/A L28 that kicks a$$. I probably have about 160-180 RWHP (thats just a guess I don't have any dyno #'s to prove it) I don't have a stroker and I'm just running SU's but I have a good cam and valve train (N42 head) and all the other stuff that will add 5 HP here, 10 HP there. The bottom line is I'm going turbo. I almost have all my turbo parts and as soon as I get them all rounded up Im gonna covert my fun N/A L28 in to a kick ass 300 RWHP street demond. you can spend a dump truck full of money on a N/A 3.1 stroker and still only get 225 to the wheels or ... you can spend $500 on a 280zx turbo motor and get 225 to the wheels. And if you tack on another 2k to that junk yard zx motor then you get closer to 400 to the wheels. I remember seeing a guy at the last MSA car show that had a 3.1 robello engine in his 240Z and on the windshield he had proudly displayed his dyno sheet. I was expecting to see 250 or more RWHP and 275 torque. NOPE. 180 RWHP I don't remember the torque but it was lower than the HP. I kept staring at the sheet thinking, "this can't right". Now thats just one guys motor and there are motors that make more power than that, but I'm just say'n. If I was you I would drop a few buck into a turbo build enought to get you close to 300 RWHP, and spend the rest of the money on the suspention. Put coil overs and 5 way adjustable takico struts on there with strut braces and thicker sway bars, put in a rear sway bar. put some nice wheels on there and enjoy an awesome ride that will make you forget where you last left your porche keys. one last thing I know you were worried about keeping the interior stock looking in your Z. I'm with you on that one my brother. I'm going turbo and the only thing that will be in my Z that isn't stock will be the boost gague and it will be tastfully added next to the trans tunnle. If you don't want to see anything like that either put it in the golve box or take out the clock (that doesn't work anyway) and put the boost gague in that slot. Just my 3 cents worth. Matt- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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