lbhsbZ Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 Finally...I got started on it 3 months ago, went through 2 machine shops and 3 blocks before it got done right. I got the rings sized up last night and installed the cam bearings...twice, and installed all the pistons on the rods. Today I assembled everything (and disassembled it a couple times) and degreed in the cam. I learned a couple things in building this engine. I've built plenty of motors in the past, and always had the machine shops install the cam bearings, and usually I was reusing the stock rods so I had the machine shop hang the rods on the new pistons. I always just put the rods back in the positions that I took them out of, and never thought twice about it. Well, after torquing down the 1 and 2 rods in this one, the crank wouldn't turn. After a little investigation, I saw the slight chamfer on one side of each rod....that I failed to notice when I put the pistons on the rods last night. Naturally, every single rod was facing the wrong direction. So I spent the next hour or so cutting my fingers while attempting to remove the spirolocks without screwing them up so I could flip the rods back around the right way. (NOTE TO SELF: next time use green assembly lube, not the red stuff....that way, you can tell the difference between it and the blood dripping off your fingers) I actually feel really stupid for not noticing the chamfer in the beginning, but ehh, live and learn. The cam bearing were also a learing experience. I thought all the bearings were the same size and the cam just slid in there and bob's yer uncle...wrong. Good thing I bought 2 sets of cam bearings. Anyway, here a couple pictures. Specs: 4.032" bore, Forged cromoly crank 6" H-beam rods, 12.7:1 C/R JE forged pistons Schneider .670 lift, 256 @ .050 solid roller cam Comp cams lifters Comp cams roller rocker Brodix X11 heads with 2.10/1.64 valves ARP studs throughout I was going to check the valve/piston clearance too, but realized that I was sent the 1.5:1 rockers when I ordered 1.6:1 rockers (what the cam card calls for) so I have to wait until next week. The pistons were so pretty, I almost didn't want to put them in the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zwitha383 Posted April 15, 2007 Share Posted April 15, 2007 The cam bearing were also a learing experience. I thought all the bearings were the same size and the cam just slid in there and bob's yer uncle...wrong. Good thing I bought 2 sets of cam bearings. Anyway, here a couple pictures. Please elaborate. I've never put in cam bearings either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 15, 2007 Author Share Posted April 15, 2007 Well, they all looked the same when I dumped them out of the box...except one of them had 2 holes in it. I figured that would go in the front becuase its farthest away from the oil pump...and I was right. Then I picked up another one and started smacking it into the rear most hole in the block...I bend the bearing and beat up my tool a little bit. I fixed the tool on my lathe, then grabbed another bearing and tried again...this one went in easy. I grabbed my second set of bearings measured the ODs. There are 2 small ones, 2 medium ones, and 1 big one. Each is only about .010 larger than the next, which is why I didn't notice it. on the cam bearings, from the front back: Big, medium, small, small, medium I went back through all my manuals and books and instruction sheets that I could find, and nowhere does it mention this stuff. I guess these are little tricks that everyone just learns for themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 Progress has come to a screeching halt. Dammit. I got the rockers in today so I decided to clay the #1 piston and check piston to valve clearance....bolt the head on, engine turns about 10 degrees and stops. I hit the point where it stops a couple times hard so I might see some marks when I took the head back off. After assembling and disassembling a couple times, every piston dome is hitting the head surface around the spark plug area. I spent about $900 on these pistons because JE makes them specifically to fit the Brodix X-11 head. GRRRRRRRR I'm pissed. There have been way to many bumps in the road with this engine. I'm ready to pour gas on it and throw a match in it's general direction. Oh, and I realized the mistake I had made before hand and put the pistons in the correct holes before I put the head on. I'm surprised nobody caught that looking at the picture.....2 and 4 needed to be swapped for the correct valve releif orientation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
280zwitha383 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 I spent about $900 on these pistons because JE makes them specifically to fit the Brodix X-11 head. WOW, I'd be pissed too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted April 17, 2007 Administrators Share Posted April 17, 2007 Sorry to hear about your stumbling blocks. Your diligence in wanting to do this yourself and do it right is very apparent in your post and those pics of that gorgeous build up. WHEN you are finished with it, (not if, WHEN), I have no doubt it will be a very hard running engine. These things happen sometimes. As a professional engine builder myself, your build up is absolutely stunning. Nice work. You are apparently quite conscious about the importance of the details. Any how, just Give JE a call tomorrow and they will take care of you. Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your build. Paul Ruschman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ledphoot Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 The block may be decked too much. A ton of careful machining and measuring goes into building those big motors ! Well, any motor if you do it right. But big motors are less forgiving.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 Sorry to hear about your stumbling blocks. Your diligence in wanting to do this yourself and do it right is very apparent in your post and those pics of that gorgeous build up. WHEN you are finished with it, (not if, WHEN), I have no doubt it will be a very hard running engine. These things happen sometimes. As a professional engine builder myself, your build up is absolutely stunning. Nice work. You are apparently quite conscious about the importance of the details. Any how, just Give JE a call tomorrow and they will take care of you. Keep up the good work and keep us posted on your build. Paul Ruschman thanks for the words of encouragement, although at this point, I'm ready to throw this $*#$&%* thing in the garbage and buy a ZZ4 crate motor and call it a day, at least then I'll be able to drive the car. And Ledphoot, The deck clearance is set at .004", exactly as I asked the shop to do it (so when I cook it, I've still got a bit to machine off to true it up again) I also measured the heads a after I had the work done on those and compared against specs from Brodix Tech...they are well within operating specs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 WHOOOO! take a brake drop the beer and think it thru look VERY closely at the engines short block picture youve installed RIGHT HAND PISTONS in LEFT HAND CYLINDERS, THATS WHY the rods appeared to be wrong,thats why the heads hit some pistons, notice on the rear two cylinders the exhaust is on the out side, on that pair,(correct) but on the front two cylinders they are adjacent (inside)(BAD,BAD) picture on the PG14 EI-IE-EI-IE http://go.mrgasket.com/pdf/Chevrolet.pdf BTW on RODS the BEVELED EDGE FACES OUT on each pair with the flat edge mating EXAMPLE upper rod has inside surface showing,(MATES TO OTHER ROD IN PAIR) lower rod has outside,face showing (FACES CRANK COUNTER WEIGHT) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 Grumpy, with all do respect, you have a lot of knowledge that we can all benefit greatly from, but in this thread, and my piston ring thread, you didn't read the thread before you made your response. If you'll read the last paragraph of the 4th post in this thread, you'll see that the subject of your post has already been addressed. But hats of to you for the being the only one that caught it. After talking with JE and Brodix this morning, and searching on line for pictures of the chambers on the heads that I have, it appears as if my heads have had the chambers welded up and reshaped. They look nothing like they are supposed to. I guess I have to either run a flat top piston, or start grinding on the chamber to reshape it correctly, then CC them all to make sure I get them all the same, and repeat 100 times till its right. This should be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 SORRY... YOUR CORRECT I SPOTTED THE PICTURE, IN THE TOP POST, DID A DOUBLE TAKE, and STOPPED READING AND STARTED POSTING EVERYONE MAKES MISTAKES I know IVE made my share, over the years, ITS learning to not repeat them thats the skill! NO ONES PERFECT,(LEAST OF ALL ME!) but thats a great teaching aid! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 OK, so whats the HybridZ community say....grind the heads or build it with flat-tops? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 You've already got custom pistons and it's going to be hard to recoop much $$$ from them. I would suggest selling the heads and buying an unmodified set. jt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 just HOW badly do they interfear and at what point do they contact and by how much? generally a small amount of machine work on the piston dome AND OR the chamber or BOTH will give the clearance . first step is carefull measurement and finding exactly what needs to be done, its comon on BIG BLOCK heads and domed pistons for this to be necessary since theres a huge differance in combustion chamber designs and dome shapes/heights I just built a 13.7:1 cpr BBC where the dome needed to be machined fore a fire slot as the spark plug tip and a bit of the quench area edge contacted the dome, luckly the total depth of all machined aluminum was less than .080 in one area and less than .040 in the other, since the total weight of aluminum removed was next to zip in weight (less than 1.3 grams)we didn,t even bother to reballance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest loosecannonzs Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 What you may consider is keeping the heads and measuring to see if you can put an Off-the-Shelf or Flat top piston in (Just incase you have motor problems (hope not). This way if you only nuke a piston you can use another the same weight and repair cheaply and easily. Heads arent cheaper than pistons anyways. On my up and coming turbo build Im going this route (as I will nuke pleanty of pistons ^ ^). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 BTW, ITS A LEARNING PROCESS,EVERYONE SCREWS UP at times, its LEARNING from your mistakes and the mistakes of others that results in SKILLS being perfected OVER TIME, LORD knows Ive done my share of stupid things over the years example WHEN I was 17 years old,I dropped off a set of rare HP heads at a local machine shop for a valve job, was told to come back in 48 hours,they would be ready... but failed to get a receipt, the bas$%%^ RETURNED a totally differant set of junk heads and swore they were MY heads, I was SCREWED and OUT BIG BUCKS, I learned to take MULTIPUL DETAILED PICTURES and get EXTREMELY DETAILED RECEIPTS with every facet of the job listed. priced, and the times and cost specified, yet at times I still get idiots running machine shops,argue about what, when,how much etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 Well, the heads are Brodix X11s with a lot of port work done on them, I bought them used from a small sportman level nascar team....I have other heads, but not like these. It would cost me $2500 to replace these heads. I'm thinking that I might just park this motor in the corner and put together what was going to be the "spare". Then when I regain some level of patience, spend the time to carefully reshape the chambers and assemble the engine. Grumpy, the crank stops turning with the pistons about 1/4 inch from TDC, which means that I have to remove a considerable amount of material for it to clear, and then a little more to make for safe clearance. I haven't even put a spark plug in yet to see if that will work. I'll have to make a pattern of the dome shape on the piston, and reference off of a couple of head bolt holes, then blue the head, and scribe the pattern into the head surface....after the rough cuts, I'll have to polish it until they all CC the same. This will be a project I think. My machine shop has offered to do it...says it will take "a couple of hours", but for some reason, I don't think that they would put the same level of care into it that I will. Damn, I hate pulling unfinished engines off the stand...its kind of like pushing the car OUT of the garage....defeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 "Grumpy, the crank stops turning with the pistons about 1/4 inch from TDC," keep in mind your working in three dimensions, while it might take a full .25" in piston height off the dome to clear the chamber wall that probably won,t be off the whole dome and probably wont be, its far more common for an edge to be laid back,or a few thousands too be milled from the side of the dome rather than the top to gain clearance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLave Posted April 17, 2007 Share Posted April 17, 2007 Well, the heads are Brodix X11s with a lot of port work done on them, I bought them used from a small sportman level nascar team.... I don't know if you can get in touch with them. But maybe you should call up the guys you got the heads from. Explain to them your piston troubles and ask them what they run with those heads. Its worth a shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbhsbZ Posted April 17, 2007 Author Share Posted April 17, 2007 I'll take some pictures in the next day or so showing the interference. It not a simple "take a little bit off right there" kinda fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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