2003z Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 sorry about your Z, but you will be very happy with the Z06. Its on par with the stock C6 performance, maybe just a little better (it definitely feels tighter in the handling department). My 350z had the stillen supercharger and lots of other mods and was no where close to the performance of my C6, even though on the dyno sheets, they looked about equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2003z Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 oh yeah, insurance is cheaper on a Vette than a 350z also. A lot less of them get wrecked than do 350z's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 There's no way I'd buy another M-Roadster/Coup... The cost of maintenance is outragious on them, when compared to other cars of similar performance. The Vette is going to have less quality in the build department than the BMW, hands down, but the performance is amazing and bang for the buck, its hard to argue the LS6 performance edge. The 350Z is a nice car, and has a ton of aftermarket support at a reasonable cost. But it's still a fairly heavy, underpowered car...I'd pick the Vette. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismoman Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 Definatly Z06. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted June 24, 2007 Share Posted June 24, 2007 There's no way I'd buy another M-Roadster/Coup... The cost of maintenance is outragious on them, when compared to other cars of similar performance..... That's a bit of a gross overstatement IMO. On S54 engine cars (2001-2002), this is somewhat true since you need to use a special oil formulated for BMW (and only available from BMW, i.e. expensive) and these engines also require need periodic valve adjustments since the valves are non-hydraulic. The rest of the car is pretty straightforward though. Parts are more expensive when compared to other makes, but that's true for most imports from the Fatherland regardless. I own a 2000 M Coupe and just hit 60K miles. I have only had to do scheduled maintenance up to this point. And just FYI..normal wear and tear parts aren't terribly expensive. Brake pads, rotors, filters (oil fiters are <$5) are reasonably priced and very easy to replace. There is also decent aftermarket support. I doubt you'll ever find a car that is any easier to change the oil on. It will need a cooling system overhaul in the near future, but that is a well known design weakpoint which has been a curse on BMWs for the last 10+ years. My car is used in at least 5 autox events per year (just local BMWCCA stuff for the most part) so it sees it's share of motorsports. It's certainly not babied by any stretch. Yet, it has managed to hold up very nicely and is extremely rewarding to drive. Given your criteria, I would probably go for a Vette first. It will be easier to find and arguably cheaper to maintain own. It's already a very capable and fast car so there's probably very little you would need to do to satisfy certain urges. Second would be the M Coupe. It may not be as fast or cheap to own, but it is very fun to drive and arguably more collectible if that is in your plans. Prices for S54 equipped cars remain rather high ,and S52 cars although cheaper are still commanding decent prices. Compare this with similar year M3s and it's clear the M Coupe is gaining ground. Bringing up the rear in distant third is the 350Z. Granted I'm biased already since I own a 240Z, but after driving one several times I have come to the conclusion that it's just too heavy and the dynamics in just about all aspects are poor in comparison to the other two. Unfortunately, this is true of most modern sports cars with few exceptions. Porsche is one of the very few who have actually managed to *reduce* weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MY77Z Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Z06 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 Dave, I can only speak to the car that I owned, BUT my insurance agent rattled off the costs to replace things such as the fenders and hood and came up with higher numbers than if I were to replace those hard parts on my 996TT. My costs to insure the 996TT went DOWN over the 2002 Mroadster. Now to the maintenance end, There is that oil cost issue that drove me nuts... It actually cost MORE to maintain the S54 MRoadster than it does to maintain my 996TT. Want to talk about those rear subframe issues they're talking class action suit over??? THAT IS A HUGE issue... It's a great car, and I'm glad I owned one. Build quality is hands down better than any C5 with more than 10K miles on it. But everything else being even, the Mseries coup/Roadster is an expensive proposition, and once you cost everything out, you start realizing you're paying serious money for not so serious amounts of performance. Mine was making 315HP, and cost more to maintain than my 600HP 996TT. Am I the only one that thinks that is NUTS? Brake pads and rotors are AS expensive as on my 996TT, as is the suspension... Exhaust upgrades? $1800 on average for an Eisenmann catback. Any other mods to get more serious power? $$$$ Nope, glad I bought it and lived it... Nice car.. GREAT PAINT. Excellent fit and finish. But dollar for dollar, I'd buy another C5 before I'd do the Bimmer again. I did not own a 99-2000 Mcoup/Roadster, but the lack of HP (240 vs 315 in the 2001-2002) was what turned me off those cars. The other shocker was the weight of my 2002. The car weighs 3180#, which is as much or more than my wife's 97 328is 4 DOOR. And if you plan to track the Roadster, prepare to instal a rollbar of some time approved by SCCA, because the hoops on it from the factory aren't legal for track events... Mike That's a bit of a gross overstatement IMO. On S54 engine cars (2001-2002), this is somewhat true since you need to use a special oil formulated for BMW (and only available from BMW, i.e. expensive) and these engines also require need periodic valve adjustments since the valves are non-hydraulic. The rest of the car is pretty straightforward though. Parts are more expensive when compared to other makes, but that's true for most imports from the Fatherland regardless. I own a 2000 M Coupe and just hit 60K miles. I have only had to do scheduled maintenance up to this point. And just FYI..normal wear and tear parts aren't terribly expensive. Brake pads, rotors, filters (oil fiters are <$5) are reasonably priced and very easy to replace. There is also decent aftermarket support. I doubt you'll ever find a car that is any easier to change the oil on. It will need a cooling system overhaul in the near future, but that is a well known design weakpoint which has been a curse on BMWs for the last 10+ years. My car is used in at least 5 autox events per year (just local BMWCCA stuff for the most part) so it sees it's share of motorsports. It's certainly not babied by any stretch. Yet, it has managed to hold up very nicely and is extremely rewarding to drive. Given your criteria, I would probably go for a Vette first. It will be easier to find and arguably cheaper to maintain own. It's already a very capable and fast car so there's probably very little you would need to do to satisfy certain urges. Second would be the M Coupe. It may not be as fast or cheap to own, but it is very fun to drive and arguably more collectible if that is in your plans. Prices for S54 equipped cars remain rather high ,and S52 cars although cheaper are still commanding decent prices. Compare this with similar year M3s and it's clear the M Coupe is gaining ground. Bringing up the rear in distant third is the 350Z. Granted I'm biased already since I own a 240Z, but after driving one several times I have come to the conclusion that it's just too heavy and the dynamics in just about all aspects are poor in comparison to the other two. Unfortunately, this is true of most modern sports cars with few exceptions. Porsche is one of the very few who have actually managed to *reduce* weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted June 25, 2007 Share Posted June 25, 2007 I hear ya Mike, but your experience is quite different from mine. My Coupe has been dead reliable and very easy to maintain, both in terms of time and money. While still expensive when compared to the ubiquitous Chevy/Ford, that statement holds true for most imports. I have found very little price difference for day to day maintenance parts in my experience with VW/Audi/BMW. I just purchased OEM front rotors for our Audi A6 and they were just $160/pr at dealer prices. OEM replacement rotors for BMW can be had for ~$120/pr and ~$260 for the Motorsport ‘floating’ rotors. Since all of the German makes tend to use the same suppliers (Bosch, Sachs, Febi, etc…) I believe you’ll find Porsche maintenance parts similar in price if not slightly higher. In essence, I don’t think it’s surprising that your 996 isn’t terribly expensive to maintain for everyday stuff. Thankfully, Porsche’s are rather reliable as well so assuming you keep up with the required maintenance they should be relatively cheap to maintain, if not to buy. However, I’m sure you’ll find that anything beyond normal maintenance gets very expensive, very fast. Did you price out how much all of your upgrades cost to get to 600hp? An APR/GIAC chip upgrade alone is $4000. The BMW Eisenmann exhaust @ $1800 seems like a screaming deal compared to the 996TT set which costs $5768. A Supersprint exhaust is $5700. How about an upgrade to K24 GT2 turbo’s? According to AWE, that kit costs a cool $10G! While a BMW may seem expensive when coming from a Chevy/Ford, it’s a bargain compared to Porsche. This isn’t a slam on the P-car however because they have and always will be my favorite make of all time. I grew up around the cars (356-early 911s) and have a real affinity for anything 911. From reading your post, it sounds like you are a little bitter about some of the ‘hidden’ costs of ownership. Your insurance drop should come as no surprise as the M Roadster tops the list of most stolen cars. Click. The Porsche is far less common and although more expensive, less likely to be stolen hence the rate drop. The special oil requirement and valve adjustment are well documented for the S54 engine cars. To be frank, these items are what turned me towards the slightly underpowered, but considerably cheaper S52 version that I currently own and enjoy. The S54 is highly strung from the factory. Anyone buying one of these knows that there is little to no power to be had from any upgrade. Even forced induction add-ons are iffy due to the high strung nature of the beast. Exhausts are for noise, not power. There’s a reason BMW is dropping this motor for the next-gen M3. They simply can’t wring any more reliable power out of it. It shouldn’t come as any surprise that the aftermarket wasn’t able to either. Still, it’s rather moot as 315hp is more than enough to make the car scoot. BTW, M Roadsters are a good 200lb heavier than their Coupe brethren; Coupe’s routinely come in just under 3000lb. While still heavy in my book, when compared to similar cars it’s a featherweight. Heck, even the newest Nissan Sentra SE-R is tipping the scales at almost 3100lbs! The subframe issue is a well documented problem with a myriad of solutions. While I won’t make excuses for this design deficiency, the problem is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. BMW has been stepping up to the plate in some cases to take care of this at no cost to the owner, as they should. Others have decided to go the custom route using one of several kits available to strengthen the affected areas. Most of this seems to be done for <$1K. Each manufacturer seems to have their share of problems these days. Toyota has sludge in their engines, Porsche has faulty main oil seals and BMW has a sub par frame so I tend to look at these issues with a grain of salt. Aside from all this, the original poster was asking about a 99-00 M Coupe so the whole issue of unique oil, unreliable engine (rod knock) and valve adjustments goes out the window. The subframe failure is an issue and should be addressed. Aside from that, the 99-00 M Coupe is no more expensive to maintain than an E36 M3. There is no question that a C5 Vette will be the better bang for buck all around given the OPs 3 choices. The M Coupe, while arguably more expensive than the 350Z comes in a close 2nd with a 350Z in a distant 3rd. If he were to say 2001-2002 M Coupe/Roadster, I would probably put the M Coupe in 3rd place due to some of the issues you raised. BTW, gorgeous P Car. I wouldn’t mod it any differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Dave, I have no clue what the car cost to modify, nor do I care. I paid $71000 for the car as is with a 48Kmile/48 month warranty. I can tell you that having owned Mustang Cobras, Chevy Corvettes (both of which were modified), BMW M series cars (stock) and the 996TT, there's simply no way I'd recommend a 240HP Mcoupe/roadster over a 97-2004 C5. I'd have my head examined otherwise... The 2001-2002 cars were margainaly better with the HP/build qualitu factor/ and margainly worse with the cost to own/operate factored in... Quite honestly, there is no comparison to the car that now owns a spot in my garage. Just took a former Z06 owner for a ride, and he was simply "stunned" at th level of performance and the level of quality/options... I'll never step down, so long as I can afford it. There's no comparison, and if we're ever in the same place at the same time, you'll get to sample it... There's not enough words to explain it, so I wont bother failing to try. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted June 26, 2007 Share Posted June 26, 2007 Not sure where you were going with this response, but from my 1st post on this topic I was recommending the C5 Vette over the 99-00 Coupe, given the criteria. I'm sure a 996TT blows away all of the other cars you have known, but this isn’t a 996TT vs everyone else comparison. I only raised the Porsche costs into the mix as a contrary viewpoint to the one in which you compared BMW maintenance and modification costs to that of your Porsche and considered it “NUTSâ€. As I stated earlier, my experience with Cost of Ownership and modification on my 99-00 M Coupe (which is the exact car the OP was asking about) has been very good and apparently quite the opposite of yours. Perhaps I have some direct experience with Porsche’s as well? My apologies if listing Porsche prices offended you in some way. I'm certainly not trying to bash your decision to go after a 996TT. I'm simply trying to provide some 1st hand BMW M Coupe ownership experience to help in the OPs query. We can at least hope that this information proves useful in some way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 26, 2007 Author Share Posted June 26, 2007 Not sure where you were going with this response, but from my 1st post on this topic I was recommending the C5 Vette over the 99-00 Coupe, given the criteria. I'm sure a 996TT blows away all of the other cars you have known, but this isn’t a 996TT vs everyone else comparison. I only raised the Porsche costs into the mix as a contrary viewpoint to the one in which you compared BMW maintenance and modification costs to that of your Porsche and considered it “NUTSâ€. As I stated earlier, my experience with Cost of Ownership and modification on my 99-00 M Coupe (which is the exact car the OP was asking about) has been very good and apparently quite the opposite of yours. Perhaps I have some direct experience with Porsche’s as well? My apologies if listing Porsche prices offended you in some way. I'm certainly not trying to bash your decision to go after a 996TT. I'm simply trying to provide some 1st hand BMW M Coupe ownership experience to help in the OPs query. We can at least hope that this information proves useful in some way. Dave240z and Mikelly, I found both of your views informative. I think that you both raise valid points but seem to have some miscommunication on what the other person was trying to get across. One of the auto loan stimpulations is that the car needs to be an 02 or newer so a s52 bmw is out of the question. And being that a s54 M coupe or m3 is as expensive or more than a z06 (talking about initial cost) and I would rather have a z06 over a M coupe if prices were equal I will be getting a z06. I have ordered one from a dealer in Cali and it should be here next week. It is an 02' Blue with 50k miles on it. I'll post up when it arrives. Thanks for the input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Dave, I wasn't offended or trying to be contentious, only trying to provide more insite into my comments... I've owned several of the cars being discussed, driven several at the track where all their warts come out, and figured the comparison was one of interest. Other than the difference in HP/cost to maintain on the early vs. late MZ3 based coupe or roadster, I feel my views are of value to Thumper, who contacted me offline... I wouldn't put the early Mroadster/coupe in the running, due in no small part to the 240BHP rating. It's a fine car, but by no means in the same category as a C5... The later model MZ3 Roadster/coupe closes the gap... As to the comments about the porsche, I was simply providing that data as another comparison... If someone got offended, that wasn't the intent. Thumper, Contact me offline if you want more info, otherwise I'm pretty much done with my "opinionating" in this thread... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave240Z Posted June 27, 2007 Share Posted June 27, 2007 Glad to help Thumper. That Z06 is going to be one heckuva car. Excellent color choice for the Z06 BTW. BTW, no offense taken Mike. I totally agree that the C5 Z06 is certainly in an entirely different league from the M Coupe when it comes to performance. However, there is more to a car purchase decision than just absolute hp. If there wasn't, I don't think anyone would be cross shopping an M Coupe vs. Z06. In the end, you have your opinion and I have mine. We'll just have to leave it at that I guess. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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