lilredZ Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Well, I ran my lilredz pretty hard for about 20 1/4 mi runs and raced a few cars (won all of them) and now she has a knock. This 64 289 block simply wasn't made for this type of abuse...or what I call standard driving. I don't speed in residential areas no matter what!! My best race was my buddies C55 AMG (2006) Mercedes. I pulled 3 car lengths in the first 100 ft. then he stayed with me pretty well. Everybody else was a smear...G35, Suped up Camaro, one guy with a Harley and a few idiots in trucks (what cha got there a race truck...hehehe). I mean you can hear that I'm running a V8 so it's easily a 300 HP motor so you would have to have what 600 HP in your truck just to keep up...And 600 HP in a truck is hard to hook up better than me... Anyway she has a knock and it's pretty bad. So I'm going to save some pennies and buy a Dart short-block in a couple of months. The one I found has all forged internals and costs $4200 (ebay). I will use my cams and upper end and go with a 347. Any inputs are welcome. LilRedZ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Sounds like the OEM block held up fine, but something inside may be going bad. It was a 289 block, but what was the actual displacement? What RPM do you shift at. Some specs or details and photos would be nice. I've had close to the same experience in the initial pull, but given enough time (with my 289), they will catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted October 11, 2007 Share Posted October 11, 2007 I simply fail to see what is apparently a rod knock or piston noise translate to the block being bad. Undoubtedly the dart block is a solid foundation from which to build and getting more cubes is definately a plus, but if your going stroker with a dart block, get all the cubes you possibly can, since they are about the same price. Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 Yea...sorry for the "quick-draw" dis on my own block...without explanation... The block is likely ok but I understand that its only reliable up to 500 hp. I can buy a roller Dart block for $4200 on e-bay. In my mind, if I'm going to pull this motor and do a rebuild I may as well (as I tend to do) try to turn this into a win/win and drop in something that I can boost or do whatever I want....down the road. The upper components (Brodix Tr1 Ford Heads, Gary Williams 4150 Carb etc) are expensive and worth keeping. When I'm done I'll have a $10K motor....or a motor that will otherwise cost me $10K to buy. That said I am a Chevy Guy (Old school) who has never built a Ford before and am learning about the idiosyncrasies of these motors every day. As such, I am happy to hear the conventional and unconventional wisdom of those who know (waay) more than me. My Z was built well and handles incredibly well with the Ford (as it sits low and aft) and I love it...so I am going to switch hit and build a strong Ford motor....may as well since I have to pull it... I appreciate the constructive feedback! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 For my specs: You can click on the pictures to make them larger: http://osgoods.blogspot.com/2007/04/...tsun-240z.html Ok...for a list of mods: 289 Sm Block (1964 -040E-6015C) 337 cu in Bore = 4.03" Stroke = 3.3" 302 Ford Crank KB178 Pistons 17cc Audi 5.35" Sm. Jnl connecting rods 62cc chamber .002" deck Brodix Track1 Ford Heads Intake= 2.055 Exhaust = 1.6 Cam .547" Lift Hydrodyne Intake Flows 250 CFM @ .5" lift 6:1 rockers on solid lifters 9.2:1 Compression Gary Williams 820 CFM Holley Carb Victor Jr. Intake Manifold Custom Oil Pan MSD Ignition Est. 400+ HP Ford C4 tranny with Gear Vendors Over/Under (making it like a 6 spd) R200 Rear End 3.5 Ratio Roll Cage with 4 point seat harnesses Racing seats Koni Suspension Wilwood custom Brakes with 12.18" front and 11.4" Rear rotors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 13, 2007 Author Share Posted October 13, 2007 I ntook a look at Terry's "CarDomain" page and am humbled beyond words...all I can say is...wow... That alternator hooked up to the drive shaft is ingenious and the creativity and obvious follow-through is amazing. Nice work!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Nice car, and the set-up on the motor looks great. Have you considered the stoked 351W options? It's strong enough for what you're looking for, and you can use the same heads, transmission, and front ancillary pieces. I'll bet you could build an easy 500+ hp motor with less money than you've alloted for the stroked 302 block. I've spent probably close to 3K on mine that I'm building (shortblock & machine work, balancing, and the stroker kit was about 2K, header materials for new headers was about six hundred, and then other misc stuff), but will still need another 500 or so to finish it up and I expect a low 500 HP motor when finished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 14, 2007 Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 I would love to put in a 351W but the problem is that the deck height is too high....I think... I am going to take some careful measurements tomorrow when I take it out to see. I do like the idea though. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMoore56 Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Hey there! Your car looks good and with the combination of parts you have already, it looks like all you need is the 351W block, intake, distributor and the stroker kit for your engine. The 351W engine is only one inch taller and about two inches wider than the 289/302 block. I've been running a 392/393 what ever you want too call it for a little over 5 years now. It uses a 3.85 in stroke crank, stock 351W rods and a late model 302 piston. I have only about $1500.00 total in mine. With your heads, cam and the right intake, you could make an easy 500 plus HP with a 392/393. I am using the Hawks Racing crank that I got off of eBay. I paid $249 for it and now its only $149. I got a 94 roller block cheap and built it up. I found out the hard way with it though. With my combination, the compression ratio is about 1.6 to 1 higher with the 302 piston. I got all my parts off eBay for it. It makes close to 480 lb ft of torque at 2000 RPM. I've been running it in my 94 F150, soon to have one in my 77 280Z. And I can't wait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMoore56 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I forgot to mention that you will need the 351 oil pan also. The 351 has a larger rear main seal. The timing cover from the 289/302 will work on a 351W. You have to pay attention to where the dipstick is on your engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 My Victor Jr intake on the 289 is exactly 1 7/16" shorter than the Hurricane (copy of the 351W Victor Jr intake) intake on the 351W block. The 351w Torker II intake is quite a bit shorter and angled downward at the front. Overall, it (Torker II) is allows the 351W to be mounted with no net gain in height. I am going to weigh the two this fall when I do the swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 26, 2007 Author Share Posted October 26, 2007 Well well well... The knock turned out to be the flywheel counterballance weight hitting the starter flange. It's an aftermarket high torque starter and I guess there was just enough movement (for some reason) to cause the weight to hit the starter. This makes sense because we couldn't pinpoint the noise even from under the car with a stethescope...the noise was loudest in the center of the bellhousing under the car!! I am going to replace the rod bearings anyway...while the oil pan is off. We noted that the side to side clearance on the rods is about .030" on average. We think that's high. A Ford stroker book we have says that it should be .010" to .020"... I am likely going to buy a crate 347 motor at some point. I may try the 351/408 if I can convince myself that it will fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 26, 2007 Author Share Posted October 26, 2007 These headers look hugh compared to mine. I have headman tri-ys and they seem tiny when looking at these. The best quote I have on custom headers so far is like $1800... Also, I wonder what the low profile intake does to the breathing...ultimately to the HP of the motor...any feedback is appreciated as this sounds like an excellent combo for us FORD conversion guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbk240z Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 Would you consider adding a turbo? If so, here is a link that has many great low buck ideas for adding turbo to a SBF, or any engine for that matter. Check it out, I hope you find it helpful. http://www.toohighpsi.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted October 26, 2007 Share Posted October 26, 2007 There should be a lot of material, if googled, that discusses the high verses low intake manifold performance comparison. Generally, the lower intakes (comparing the Torker II to the Victor Jr) will provide higher low end torque, and the taller intakes will provide higher end power. In mocking up the 351W motor, I used the Torker II intake which allows no net gain in height over the 289/302 Victor Jr. I did find out though that the oil pan on the 351W is 1/2" to 1" deeper than the 302 oil pans (depending on which pans are used). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted October 26, 2007 Author Share Posted October 26, 2007 Thanks again for the excellent info. Do you think I need to run forged to boost presure to say 4-5 psi? This car was built with slightly odd components (VW Rods ...supposedly good to 9k rpm) and hypereutectic KBs meant for a Chevy 366. I am happy to go turbo if the cost is less than say $3K and my engine will hold up. The turbo lag would be ideally suited for this light car because it really would not benefit from any more power out of the hole...it would just spin the tires....as it is now she hooks up real good with no real tire spin. a little tire spin would be a bit welcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdk4219 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 It is highly likely that the stock block will crack long before the internals will go, although I am not familiar with the older blocks (nor VW rods in them!) I have a BMW e30 with a stock 91 302HO with a T66 and GT40Y heads with MLS gaskets that I run 12 lbs on a regular basis. It puts out 560wheel and it has been over revved quite a few times, but it is still together. I have been told by a few poeple who seem to know their Ford stuff that even the block is the weak point with hyper pistons and a good tune. I have less than 3000 in the turbo including the tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 BMW with a Ford motor...now that's unique! Any 1/4 mi numbers on that car? Sounds fun. I am going to post an update next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted November 10, 2007 Author Share Posted November 10, 2007 Update ! Knock in motor was satrter flange hitting the flywheel ballance. Had motor out so replaced all rod bearings. The bearings showed normal wear. Now the bad news: After putting the motor back in someone (me) forgot to tighten the oil plug. It fell out a couple of days later and by the time I realized what happened it did major damage to the rod bearings, discolored the rods and crank. I will document all of this when I update my blog in a couple of weeks (pics etc...). One of the pistons chipped out about a 1" piece at the top along the edge and there is NO sign of damage from that. We could only guess that the piece broke in smaller pieces and went out the exhaust?? Now the good news: I found a Dart block with forged internals. This is going in the rebuild. Going to bump the compression from 9.5 to 10.2 (using a head gasket). If I decide to blow it down the road (supercharger) then I can increase the gasket thickness a tad. So it will go from a 337 to a 369. I may also get the Brodix CNC ported 214s. This should put this configuration at about 500 hp...without any forced induction. I will document this in my blog when I am done. The old 289 block is still in excellent condition and looks as good as it likely did the day it was built. I'm only replacing it because I got a deal on the Dart and want to go to >600Hp eventually. When I'm done I expect the lilredZ to run high 10s low 11s....which should be enough to take a stock Z06 or even the new Viper....which was my goal in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilredZ Posted December 15, 2007 Author Share Posted December 15, 2007 Update - Decided to give the Brodix Tr1 Ford Heads another shot. Just got the motor back from Hubbards machine. They did a valve job and fit the heads on the new Dart block. I am running Ross racing pistons (4.155s) and forged Scat Crank and rods. The Brodix heads will flow ~250 cfm so this is about 500 hp if I get everything perfect...not likely so I'm shooting for 450-475. In order for this all to work I think I'm going to need better headers. I'm running headman tri-Ys now (because they fit the Z so well). I may bjust go rent a tig welder, buy some flanges and weld up some larger tri-ys... Putting the motor in tomorrow....oh yea and the Tokiko struts...if I have time this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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