TR's Future Build Plans - Some turbo trim Q's

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Sup guys. I've been asking a few questions here and there, and have decided to go ahead and reveal my plans to try to get some final info to plan my budget and start getting together Phase I parts.

 

Phase I

In the very near future I plant to drop a L28ET into a 1st gen Z body. The L28ET I'll be getting is "complete" minus injectors and ecu. Therefore, off the bat I will be getting the 450cc supra injectors and megasquirting the engine, using the stock dizzy to trigger spark. So, assuming the engine isn’t missing anything else needed to run other than the injectors, I will need:

 

- Megasquirt-I v3.0 (running MSnS), relay board, relay cable, and wiring bundle

- LC-1 Wideband

- GM IAT Sensor (IIRC the only extra senor I'll need, I can run stock everything else yes?)

- Pallnet 11mm O-ring Fuel Rail

- 440cc Supra Injectors

 

I think that should get me a running engine and drivable car, running 10psi boost or lower. With a good tune, IIRC that should get me around the 200-230whp range right?

 

 

Phase II

This summer I will add an intercooler, 60mm TB, 3” electric exhaust cutout after a custom DP for track and stock exhaust on low boost for daily driving, and a T3/T04E hybrid. So, I will need:

 

- 24x12x3 intercooler and piping

- Junkyard BOV (for now)

- Pallnet 240sx 60mm TB (do I need the TB spacer?)

- T3/T04E Hybrid Turbo

- New custom downpipe to exhaust cutout

- Electronic Boost Controller

 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think that should be everything I'll need for the turbo upgrade.

 

 

Turbo Q's

I've been doing a bunch of reading about the T3/T04E hybrids, and there has been lots of argument /discussion regarding the trims and turbines to use. My goal is 350-400whp on stock internals, with the intended use of a daily driver and weekend autocross/track car. I'm not as interested in drag racing, so which (.50, .57, .60) trim and which turbine (Stage III 10 blade?) would be best for me?

 

When the time comes, should I try to grab the appropriate turbo off ebay or the like, or see if a local turbo shop can build me one using my stock hotside? Cost is a concern, and I'm not sure which would be more cost efficient.

 

Now, to belay comments that 400whp is pushing the stock internals capacity, I'll mention the following:

In the event of engine failure, the plan is to completely rebuild the engine bored out to 3.0L with forged and balanced internals, and get (or do it mildly myself) the heads ported and polished, possibly even a valve job. So, I won't be pushing the engine closer to the 400whp range until I can afford to rebuild the engine. Once rebuilt, the goal is to just break the 400 mark.

 

 

 

The items in bold are the main questions I'd like to get answered so I can further plan my budget and start looking around for parts. Also, anything else you see about my plan that seems out of place feel free to make comments or suggestions.

 

I hope this thread is at least a little better than the people that just flat out ask how to get to a certain horsepower. I've tried to do the searching and research necessary to DIY, but couldn't quite figure out everything myself. Sorry for the long post and questions, and TIA for any help or suggestions!

[BurnoutZ]

These are very similar to my plans. I am alittle farther along than you are at the moment though. I have a 260z w/ 280z diff.(R200) and i have a L28et that i am getting ready to drop into the 260z. Its been quite expensive accually for a person with a budget(me).

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Yeah by the time I'm done and happy with the car I'll probably have 10k into it (years down the road though). I plan to upgrade in this order:

 

Engine and Bodywork

Aesthetics (audio and interior)

Transmission

Suspension (COS with adjustable camber)

LSD Swap

 

So I'll just have to baby the rear end until I get the rest done or I blow it up.

[Clifton]

A compressor map will tell you what you need for your HP goals. I would go witht he E60 given those choices. If you are stuck on a T3 flange, I wouldn't go smaller than a stg 3 wheel. The larger you go, the more lag but more power. Later spool should be expected though with a larger compressor, if not you will run into surge at lower rpms. If you are going with an external WG, I would go full T4, but that's me. Also 400 rwhp isn't pushing it on stock internals, knock is. The margin for error is less though at those levels.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

For simplicity I'm wanting to keep the stock T3 flange, and therefore using the stock hotside and integrated wastegate.

 

- I'm not familiar with the E60 you're referring to. I'll search it.

- So you think I should go for a Stage III wheel, don't worry if it's a 10 blade?

- I'm still learning about compressor maps.

- As far controlling knock, i'll be tuning with megasquirt. When I try to get into the higher boost levels I'll be adding meth or alcohol injection.

 

Just as a comparison, what setup (turbo, pistons, heads, CR, boost, FMS) do you have on your L28ET ? I notice you list 417whp on your sig.

 

Thanks!

[Clifton]

The trims you listed above are T4 E trims. The E's are good but they will limit you. I guess the 450cc injectors will be the first limit so the match is good. I would go with a 60-1 and atleast 550's, but that's me. You can also get a GT35R compressor wheel in a journal bearing from Precision Turbo but they are more $, cheaper than a full GT35R though.

 

At the time my L28 was a junkyard turbo short block, P90 head. Custom intake, full T4 (V trim), and valve springs, 550's SDS, 22 psi MKIII intercooler. Currently I'm running a bigger turbo and cam but haven't dynoed since. I've only been running 18 psi lately on pump, it's all I need doing auto X.

 

I wasn't questioning that you could tune it with MS, just that knock is the limit for power, not the stock internals. Detonation will break forged pistons too, just not as easily.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Yeah I actually meant to change my original post that I was now thinking about 60-1 as an option as well.

So:

- I should consider bumping up to some 550cc injectors then, noted

- For my goals, a T4 60-1 trim compressor would probably be best

 

 

I wasn't questioning that you could tune it with MS

It's all good. I was just mentioning that I'll have more control than running a stock ECU. Good to know that the internals won't have a problem handling it as long as I tune right though.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Ok I think I'm getting closer to understanding this, lol.

 

The trims you listed above are T4 E trims. The E's are good but they will limit you... I would go with a 60-1

I've been getting confused with terms while reading other posts. This post cleared everything up a little. I've seen people talking about T4E trims with 60-1 wheels elsewhere, and didn't know that 60-1 was a trim in itself on the T04B housing. I see now that when you say the E's will limit me, you mean the wheels that come with them, not the housing.

 

I think what I'm looking for is a T04E housing with a 60-1 wheel on the compressor, and a Stage III 10 blade wheel on the stock (.63ar?) hotside.

[Clifton]

You can get used 550's from RX7's if you are on a budget. Only came in a couple of years though. New ones aren't much more. I would only go with 550's minimum and a bigger turbo as you will probably get tired of what you have and want more and you'll be stuck wishing you went bigger initially. Supra 440's are so cheap because it doesn't take much to max them out. IMO the stock T3 side is too restrictive but people do make power on them. The Holset alot of people run might be a good option too. I would think it would flow more than the .63 even with a stg3 wheel. Don't know what they flow on the compressor though.

 

http://cheapturbo.stores.yahoo.net/gatu.html

[TrumpetRhapsody]

You can get used 550's from RX7's if you are on a budget.

(I am) Thanks, I'll see if I can find a set of those.

 

 

The Holset alot of people run might be a good option too.

Yeah I had originally started by looking at a holset, but they're somewhat rare around here, and considerably heavier. (so i hear)

 

 

you will probably get tired of what you have and want more and you'll be stuck wishing you went bigger initially

For awhile I'll be ecstatic just to get over 300whp to be honest. Fastest car I've driven is about 210whp

 

IMO the stock T3 side is too restrictive

Doing anything else than using something that will bolt up to the stock manifold is probably out of my short term budget. Plus, later couldn't I just do whatever to the manifold and upgrade the hotside to a T4, since my compressor already would be?

 

I'm hoping to find all of these parts used through a local turbo shop, if possible for about as much as people have been getting their holsets for, and put it all together myself. Then i'll have them balance it for me.

[Evan Purple240zt]

Dude, this is totally off topic but I would reccomend you do suspension right after driveline (if not before).

 

Fast cars and crap suspension are downright dangerous!!

 

Evan

 

EDIT; Sorry for the threadjack man!!

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Since I posted this thread my build has actually split into 4 "phases"

 

This thread was really meant only to discuss the engine upgrades, so I didn't actually mention when I'd be plugging in the suspension upgrades. They are high up on the list though, and until they get resolved, the boost will be dialed down. Thx for the mention though.

 

 

EDIT: Hmm, I can't go back and edit the first post. Guess I won't be updating it as I get everything resolved, lol.

[Clifton]

RX7 550's 195500-1370. The tan ones. The red ones are high imp.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Thanks for the info on the injectors!

 

So I got a response back from my local turbo shop. I'll post what I asked them, then what they responded with.

I'm wanting to upgrade a stock 280zx L28ET T3 turbo with these goals:

 

- Use my the stock hotside

- T04E compressor housing

- 60-1 compressor wheel

- Stage III 10 blade or Stage V turbine wheel (whichever can be done cheaper)

 

I'm trying to keep the cost as low as possible, even used is fine. If it's cheaper, I wouldn't mind yall finding the parts, selling me them and a T3/T04E rebuild kit, and letting me assemble it. The max I'd ever be running through it (unless I go twin down the road) is 450whp, but realistically closer to 400whp. If necessary, I could live with a Stage III 5 blade and the size down from the 60-1, just depends on pricing. Any idea on a rough quote for those parts and a rebuild kit?

 

They responded with

Thank you for your interest. Well, since you are wanting to install a larger turbine into you stock housing it would be almost impossible for us to send you the parts and for you to assemble it. That is unless you have a lathe and are familiar with contouring profiles. Anyway, if you sent yours in and we did the conversion for you the price would be $700.00 + $25.00 return shipping. This turbo would have a new Garrett compressor housing, backing plate, 60 trim compressor wheel, bearing housing, turbine shaft and your hot side bored to fit the new turbine. If you wanted to go up to the 60-1 that would be an additional $50.00. Our turnaround time for standard rebuilds right now is 5-7 business days.

 

I suspected that the T04E housing might need some machining to fit the 60-1 turbine in it, but I thought the Stage III turbine was a direct upgrade for our stock .63ar hotside housing?

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Ok so if nothing other than bumping purposes, I'll post my reply to the previous post's email:

 

Thanks for getting back to me with some info. I'll be wanting the 60-1 wheel in the T04E housing, but $750 is a bit steep for my budget, so here are a few ideas:

 

-As far as shipping, I'm local so I'll drop off and pick up.

 

-You mentioned that you'd use a new Garrett compressor housing, but to get the price down I'd prefer used parts if possible. I won't be having this done until this summer, so it wouldn't be a big deal if a wait was involved until you can get the used parts in stock.

 

-You list your high performance rebuilds as being $375. What I'd prefer to do is bring in the turbo to have you do any machining and modifications. I would then take the turbo back along with a rebuild kit, which I believe you have listed around $80, and rebuild it myself. I'll then bring it back in to be balanced, which you have listed as $65.

 

-Based on your quote including new parts and website pricing, if I did the rebuild myself by buying a rebuild kit and let you guys balance it, the cost would be around $520.

But, I'm thinking if we can use used parts, let you guys machine and balance it, and do the rebuild myself, maybe we could get the price somewhere in the area of $400?

 

 

Paying you guys $750 to use my stock hotside and add new parts doesn't really help me cut cost versus buying a new one, when based on your site, I could get a brand new T3/T4 60trim .82ar for $700. Also I have sources where I could get a used Holset HY-35 or HX-35 for around $400-500 and make similar power, but the goal of going with the hybrid setup was to reduce the cost even further than that. If we can get the cost down to where I mentioned for used parts, I'd prefer to go through you guys. I not trying to build a world class turbo here, so if we need to sacrifice a little bit of quality to get the price where I need it, that's fine as long as it will work.

Let me know if we can try to arrange something.

 

Thanks!

Chris

I may call them today to try to narrow down some pricing. $400 is probably a little low-ball, but it depends on the used parts. I'd much prefer paying considerably less to get used parts than refurbed or new ones.

 

If the cost is still going to be a problem, I might just stick with the .60 trim wheel they include with the upgraded T04E comp housing, and upgrade to the 60-1 later. If that doesn't even get it low enough, do you think I could stick with my stock hotside wheel, and upgrade to a stage III 10 blade later, or would the lag be worse than a holset?

 

Since I still don't know how to read compressor maps I just don't know how the different trims compare. I just try to interpret how people describe and compare them in the threads. Maybe I'll try to read up on maps today.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

Ok sorry, more news. The turbo "shop" emailed me back. Apparently they are more of a retail/refurb store and "do not change or compromise our work standards for budget reasons", so it's not the mom and pop style shop I was envisioning. I'll have to try to get this done elsewhere.

 

Also:

I read this thread, and now I'm thinking maybe I should wait to upgrade the compressor, and instead first upgrade to a Stage III 10 blade on the stock .63 hotside to help the exhaust flow.

Then as the second step, based on reading this thread talking about surge I'm thinking I should do a turbo cam at the same time I do both the T04E housing and 60-1 wheel to make sure all the extra air even gets used.

 

I know this is a personal opinion thing, but do you think maybe I'm overdoing it with a 60-1 wheel, and should try a stock .60 trim in the T04E housing first, then upgrade if I get greedy? I guess I could get the Stage III 10 blade first, then later get the T04E .60 trim. Then if I want more power get a 60-1 wheel and turbo cam. Do you think that might be a better plan than skipping straight to 60-1?

[Clifton]

The T3 turbine exducers are larger on anything larger than a standard (stock) turbine wheel. You won't have surge if you properly match the hot and cold side. Running a big compressor and stock hotside and then doing a 4th gear pull from 2000 rpms will give surge and is a stupid thing to do when a lower gear is a pull away. There is not enough airflow being used by the engine at the boost level the turbo is trying to produce at real low rpms. A cam won't help in reducing surge (maybe a few rpms) at those rpms. A 2.8 will only use so much air at low rpms. If you are going to upgrade it I would do the whole thing at once, no since in pulling it apart twice. Alot of shops can machine your turbine housing. You might be able to find a complete turbo and just use your housing. I know Az tractor and turbo (602-253-9953) in Phoenix sells E and 60-1's pretty cheap, talk to Joel, real nice guy. They were full T4's but you could run a P or O trim with a .63. I don't think he does the machine work though.

[TrumpetRhapsody]

I hate to flip-flop, but for my power goals I'm starting the think a full T4 might be the way to go after all . It might be easier to find a used one than trying to build a hybrid. If I recall, you're running a full T4 aren't you clifton? I saw your autox vid, and it was pretty impressive. Obviously I couldn't afford the GT35 (think that's what your runnning), but maybe something similar. I'll call that Arizona shop and see what they have in stock.

 

200-250 CID T4-S3 Trim T4 "O" Trim .58/.69

250-300 CID T4-V1 Trim T4 "P" Trim .69/.81

300-350 CID T4-V1 Trim T4 "P" Trim .81/.96

350-400 CID T4-H3 Trim T4 "P" Trim .96/1.30

400-450 CID T4-H3 Trim T4 "P" Trim 1.30

 

Found a little chart on another forum via google. You think the .81 hotside would be a little too laggy?