na vg30e

[lsdengines]

Does anybody know of some stout na buildups? I realize that boost is the way to peak power, but there are also situations and applications where a high strung na engine is good i.e. when precise throttle control is needed. In studying the vg30e everything seems to be up to the task except the heads and the stock plenum. The plenum is easy enough to get around, but the flow numbers I've seen on the stock heads, even ported are pretty dismal in comparison to what Im used to. I don't know if the reports I was looking at were from a jacked flowbench or if the pressure drop was something ridiculous or what.

So here are a few questions. Does anybody have good flow data for the e heads?(not with plenum attached) Are there any good na buildups around? If so, what kind of revs are you getting out of it?

[mtcookson]

The highest powered VG30E that I know of (actually of any NA VG, including the VG30DE that I know of) is built by these guys:

http://hekimianracing.com/nissan3lna.html

 

Just curious by what you mean with precise throttle control. I assume you'd basically just be worried about turbo lag... built with the correct turbo you could easily make more power than an NA VG (of course) however you can still retain excellent throttle response. If throttle control/response was that bad on turbo engines they definitely would not use them in racing... the VG30ET actually was used in a IMSA GTP car and led the class for a few years. It was boosted running up to 9k RPM making around 1,000+ HP in qualifying trim. It had a lot of power but being a winning race car definitely required control so its most definitely possible... you just have to build it correctly.

 

Say you're looking for an absolute maximum of 300 whp... if you buy a turbo that handles up to 300 whp and not 400 whp, for instance, this usually means the turbo is small enough for very quick spool, which means instant power and more control. Just some thoughts.

[nismopu]

A couple people have built 250hp n/a engines with what I consider little mods, like cam gears, cams, and a pathy intake. Vg wagon layed down 200whp in his 510 wagon with just cam gears and pathy intake. I believe he is going for even more with his new 3.3 build but I havent talked to him about it in a while. You can find him over at forum.ratsun.net or he goes by Dman over at z31performance.com. peace.

[mtcookson]

Ahh, hell... forgot about the VG33. With 90-96 Q45 pistons (VH45DE) you can have a 3.4 liter setup in a VG33. Has a compression ratio of around 9.4:1 if I remember correctly. With cams and some head work I believe guys were making 250 whp with them.

[lsdengines]

Just curious by what you mean with precise throttle control. I assume you'd basically just be worried about turbo lag... built with the correct turbo you could easily make more power than an NA VG (of course) however you can still retain excellent throttle response. If throttle control/response was that bad on turbo engines they definitely would not use them in racing... the VG30ET actually was used in a IMSA GTP car and led the class for a few years. It was boosted running up to 9k RPM making around 1,000+ HP in qualifying trim. It had a lot of power but being a winning race car definitely required control so its most definitely possible... you just have to build it correctly.

 

By throttle control I dont mean response at all. Turbo cars, in my experience have tendency to "come on" suddenly, which in the apex of a turn or in mid drift can really upset the balance of the car. Yes, I know there are ways around this with multi stage boost controllers and such. I guess precise power modulation would have been a better term to use. As far as proper turbo size is concerned I stress that to all the local guys here and they just don't care, most of them don't even know how to look at a compressor map. I realize that with a smaller turbine, and conservitively sized cold side piping, that boost threshold can be nearly the same as that of a roots/screw supercharger, albeit with a slight loss of top end power. Or vice versa.

I have'nt figured out which way I want to go with my z yet, still in the research stage. I know the merits and fun of driving a well set up turbo car, I also know how much fun it is to have an engine screaming on edge naturally aspirated.

[rztmartini]

for a max performance n/a engine, i would think that the surge of power might be more than a properly sized turbo at the same horsepower. "coming on the cam" can be pretty harsh, and you would probably get a smaller power/rev range.

 

i remember watching the Team Falken drift Camaro. it had a nasty motor in it and i think it was n/a. but the torque curve was so sharp when the cam came on that it almost spun every time it went through that rpm range (and did spin numerous times, i dont think it even qualified). take that versus the relatively more linear boost curve for a smaller turbo, and you have the opposite of the conventional "instant-torque vs boost-lag" argument.

 

But by all means, n/a engines do have major appeal, esp. when a milder cam is used but compression, induction, etc are all maxxed out, with that very linear power and flat torque...

 

just my $0.01.

[lsdengines]

Ok, let me get back to the point of this. I have built n/a, nitrous, s/c, and turbo cars in the past. I'm not trying to argue one point vs. the next. I would have posted elsewhere for that. I guess the question that I need answered is about the head flow data, then I can go from there.

 

As far as the falken camaro, if you are reffering to the 1st gen, I believe it runs a big block, and something is amiss in their setup if it just suddenly spins at a certain point in the rev range, and not others. I say this because I have worked on some very high end race cars(nextel cup) and spinning 9500rpm on 5.8liters making 800+hp, the graph is VERY smooth, no sudden surges. The only time you should see something like that happen is when you have say a 6 port rotary, and the aux ports open, or (I'm laughing as I type this one) the legendary vtec kicks in. Something has to drastically alter the breathing characteristics of the engine for a sudden spike in power. Nothing else will cause it, that's just engine physics.

 

Also, I'm not trying to seem short or a smart ass on this post, I just wasn't trying to start a boost/na debate, and it looked kind of like what it was turning in to. If there is one of those on here, I will gladly chime in on it though. I try to keep threads that I start as much on topic as possible.

[mtcookson]

Sorry about that... I'm too used to trying to set "noobs" straight on "turbo lag", which is why I brought that up.

I see you're definitely no noob to engines though, which is awesome. You'll probably be able to teach me quite a bit of stuff in a lot of various areas.

 

As far as head flow data... I've not ever seen any. This is the best data I can think of off hand but was aimed more towards intake manifold testing: http://www.redz31.com/pages/plenums.html

[lsdengines]

Sorry about that... I'm too used to trying to set "noobs" straight on "turbo lag", which is why I brought that up.

I see you're definitely no noob to engines though, which is awesome. You'll probably be able to teach me quite a bit of stuff in a lot of various areas.

 

As far as head flow data... I've not ever seen any. This is the best data I can think of off hand but was aimed more towards intake manifold testing: http://www.redz31.com/pages/plenums.html

 

Yea, I joined a few days ago, I have a whopping 19 posts under my belt. I sure do look like a Non Useable Body(NUB)!!! It's all good. I swear, a lot of forums need a basic aptitude test for new members! This is my first 300, so I do have specific questions pertaining to it. I've already exhausted myself and google looking for stuff, that's typically when I hit a forum. I get flamed a lot for joining, then 2 days later posting advice in the advanced engine tuning sections as a "noob". Oh well.

 

If anyone can come up with some flow data that will be great. If I know the flow and the rpm potential, I can figure out what there is to work with at that point. I am looking at picking up a parts car. If I do that I'll pull the engine and put the heads on our bench and post some data as I work them.

[chopstic]

The n/a vg30 seems like a great choice to me. I drive my 78 z everyday and would love a mild performing engine that is more powerful and more modern than the old L6. And considering the much lower cost of a n/a vg30 and tranny as compared to the other alternatives (rb26, 2jz, Ls1, etc...) I'm pretty much sold on the idea. My only question is if anyone here has taken the guesswork out of fabricating mounts and positioning them on the frame. Would anyone like to share?

[mtcookson]

Yea, I joined a few days ago, I have a whopping 19 posts under my belt. I sure do look like a Non Useable Body(NUB)!!! It's all good. I swear, a lot of forums need a basic aptitude test for new members! This is my first 300, so I do have specific questions pertaining to it. I've already exhausted myself and google looking for stuff, that's typically when I hit a forum. I get flamed a lot for joining, then 2 days later posting advice in the advanced engine tuning sections as a "noob". Oh well.

 

If anyone can come up with some flow data that will be great. If I know the flow and the rpm potential, I can figure out what there is to work with at that point. I am looking at picking up a parts car. If I do that I'll pull the engine and put the heads on our bench and post some data as I work them.

 

Heck, if you have access to a flow bend I'll send you some spare heads I have. I have the Maxima W series heads as well as some non-W series Z heads that I can send you. I can send all or one of each or whichever route you want to do.

 

 

Also, if you have a 300 you should drop by http://www.z31performance.com some time. Its pretty much the best place for all things performance oriented for the Z31.

[260DET]

My impression is that flow rates cannot be accurately compared between different heads, unless the same flowbench is used and conditions are similar. Re the VG30E I'd look for information on race engines and how they performed but such info seems almost nonexistent.

 

Have not been very helpful have I, its frustrating because the subject is an interesting one.

[lsdengines]

My impression is that flow rates cannot be accurately compared between different heads, unless the same flowbench is used and conditions are similar. Re the VG30E I'd look for information on race engines and how they performed but such info seems almost nonexistent.

 

Have not been very helpful have I, its frustrating because the subject is an interesting one.

You are partially correct. Different pressure drops are used by some companies to make there heads"flow" better on paper and other heads worse. And then you also have different flow scales and calibrations. A few cfm here and there on a street engine, and even a moderate race engine is no big deal and can be chocked up to bench varience. But if you have one bench with the same cal and pressure drop, you can then make conclusions. Hell, Ill take any data at this point just to get a rough idea.

 

Yes, I actually have a flow bench. I need to recalibrate it and get my pressure and velocity programs working properly to do the kind of testing I want to do. Mt, I may hit you up for those heads in the near future, let me make sure my bench is reading good consitant numbers and we will go from there.

 

It is a very interesting subject, and I will post more when I get home from work tonight.

[260DET]

There is this http://www.zcar.com/forums/read/1/655430

 

The ad appeared in Z Car magazine spring '96. The phone number then for CAM was (714) 646-6414 although the ad does not specifically say that CAM built the engines.

[mtcookson]

Mt, I may hit you up for those heads in the near future, let me make sure my bench is reading good consitant numbers and we will go from there.

 

Sounds good.

[lsdengines]

Found some interesting data today. I read elsewhere, on here I think, that the vg30de wasn't much better than the 30e. They basically said that the de would rev a little higher due to being a dual cam engine, but the heads weren't really that different flow wise.

That being said, the 30e makes 160?hp, and the de makes 230hp @6400. The de has 10.5cr vs 9.5 for the e. It takes a lot more than 1 point of copression and dual throttle bodies to make up 70hp!!! Seems to me that there is a substantial improvement in the flow on the 4 valve head. I know Im getting a little off topic since the subject was N/A vg30e, but I just wanted to rant on that for a sec. Maybe i should include the de heads as well when I get everything rolling on my bench?!

[mtcookson]

30E makes 160 on 9:1 compression and DE makes 222 hp. ~62 hp difference (some 30E's were rated higher and others lower, depending on the vehicle). The torque difference is around 16 ft. lb basing on the 89-94 Maxima VG30E's 182 ft. lb. (also different ratings in other cars, some being higher and lower, mostly the trucks being higher if I remember correctly).

 

I also have a set of DE heads if you want to test those as well.

[260DET]

According to Wiki the VG30E(W) made 165 hp, 183 ft/lb while the DE made from 185 to 227hp depending on application. So there is not much difference there given the DE has a much better intake arrangement.

 

As a comparison the VG30DET made from 222 to 255 hp, 198 to 236 ft/lb depending on application.

 

Its a given that a good four valve will always outflow a good two valve, question is which motor is the most suitable for the purpose in mind. The four valve is heavier, bulkier and more difficult and expensive to work on and modify. Those factors can be very relevant in the real world.