Gollum Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Ok, so nearly everyone who sees my car mentions the exhaust leak. I was taking a friend for a ride and as I pulled out of my parking spot a car's alarm started chirping and he said jokingly "wow, your exhaust leak sets of car alarms". The exhaust manifold was very loose in some areas so I tightened it all up to a good 20-40 pounds (hand tight, just guessing) and saw NO difference in the exhaust ticking. I'd noticed before that the tick tick tick went away when I pulled the injector clip from #4, so I knew something was amiss there. So I pulled the valve cover after just buying some feeler guages (nice 24 piece, I like it thus far). Started checking valve clearences, and most seems pretty close to spec, if anything a little tight, nothing that seemed way loose. So I started looking around for something, anything, just trying to find a hint to the problem. And I found it staring me in the face. Thanks to paul I hope to have my termonology right this time. The outer spring seat was sitting offset, and was even wedged into the spring itself. So while prying the spring up with a screwdriver and working the spring seat with another I was able to get it off the spring, bellow it again, and under the spring. I noticed a part of it had broken off, about a 1/8th-1/4 inch of it. I thought at the moment that these were "clips" not "rings" and now looking at the pictures that paul sent me realize that it's just plain broken. Pictures courtesy of paul (braap): After looking at pauls pictures I'm curious as to the condition of the inner spring seat, and I'm thinking it's probably well destroyed as well. When I started the engine back up it gave me a quick choke (might have been because I'd been bumping it with the starter to move the cam around) and then fired up, and the tick was still there. So either that didn't solve the problem, or the seat came right back out again. I think I've got a good idea of how to fix it, but does anyone have any advice on working on the valve springs without removing the head/cam if possible? Paul already gave me some good advice about keeping the piston close to TDC to keep the valve from falling too far. Do any of the common autoparts stores carry these spring seats? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrumpetRhapsody Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Did you take any pics before disassembly, or of the broken part afterward? I'm just kinda interested in the valvetrain lately, since I tried my hand at adjusting the valves for the first time this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 I didn't take any pictures. I didn't have my camera with me. I'll be getting some tonight, in about an hour actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Remove spark plug. Rotate crank to back down piston a few inches (by hand). Push clothes line into cylinder through spark plug hole, filling cylinder. Rotate crank by hand to compress clothes line and hold valve up. reverse procedure to remove.... But this does not sound like a mechanical noise! disconnecting an injector will not affect a vavlve train noise. Can affect a piston/rod/bearing problem. This sounds like a simple exhaust gasket leak. This head looks to have been rebuilt. Note the knurle in the valve guide, normally not factory. Your problem with that particular valve/cylinder may be coincidental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted March 31, 2008 Author Share Posted March 31, 2008 The pictures are not of my head. They're simply pictures provided to me via braap. The noise isn't mechanical. I believe the tick tick tick of the "exhaust leak" is actually the sound of combusion with the valve not sealing correctly. I find it odd that I have a tick tick tick that dissapears when pulling the injector, and then I find an issue with the spring seat on the SAME cylinder. It's definately related if I had to guess. Too random for it not to be to me. I agree though, it doesn't sound like a mechanical problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 You have a blown exhaust gasket. It is common to burn through a gasket when the manifold is loose. No amount of tightening will solve this. You need a new gasket. The valve spring issue is probably purely coincidental. Killing the cyl. by disconnecting the injector, or pulling the plug wire, stops combustion, and consequently the exhaust noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted March 31, 2008 Share Posted March 31, 2008 Also probably pops back on decel, another telltale of an exhaust leak at the manifold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 1, 2008 Author Share Posted April 1, 2008 Here's some pictures of the spring seat in question. It seems to have stayed seated, so I guess that's a good thing. Kragen didn't have a gasket, I'll check online tomorrow for a store on my commute that has it. Jasper, sorry if I came off as rude earlier. I was trying to head out of work at the moment and wasn't very tactful in my word selection. I know there's probably a leak out of the gasket, I understand that. What I find unusual is that I thought #3 and #4 cylinders on a turbo shared a combined opening and I found it strange that #4 would affect the leak noise, and #3 wouldn't. Am I wrong in thinking they're completely sharing a port opening on the manifold side? I know they're seperate on the head side, but the exhaust too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper Posted April 1, 2008 Share Posted April 1, 2008 No rudeness detected . Not sure on the manifold runner design, haven't seen one lately. Let us know how you fix it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 Well, I don't have the camera here at work, so I'll upload the pictures I took later. There was a bolt missing, so I picked up a bolt on the way to get a new gasket. Get home and tear it all apart. Feels good working on a L series again. I know what everything is and where everything goes for more than half the motor. Familiarity is nice. I'd hoped that it was simply a missing bolt because the manifold wasn't lining up, which wouldn't be that big of a deal. I'd just bang on the sucker till it fit But no, there was a broken bolt inside. I spend the next 8+ hours running around buying bits and easy outs with NO success. None of my bits wanted to actuall eat through the bolt and progress on saturday was making a possibly 1/8 inch deep pilot hole.... not very good. Start again the next day. Still extremely slow progress. I had a headache and was frustrated so I took off to my parent's place to grab some advice and regroup my thoughts. Went to kragen to get some liquid wrench, and some JB weld if push came to shove.... Well for no explainable reason when I got back the bolt cut like butter. Unfortunately my hole was off center and my head cut like butter too. The boly STILL wasn't comming out, and I was pretty much willing to go farther into the head if I had to in order to get the bolt out. Whil opening up the hole stepping up size after size I got to my largest bit and it snapped in the hole... Suckage. I proceeded to try to drill out the bit, snapping more bits. At this point I was sufficiantly pissed and just put it all back together (man putting a turbo manifold on is a PITA). Got it all back together and running at around 9pm last night. Exhaust tick is still there, nearly identical in sound as before. I'm gonna check the P90A in my ZX and see if it's hydrolic or solid. If it's solid I think I'm just gonna pull that motor and put it in this car. Then I'll be able to put this motor on a stand and buy megasquirt for it and get it running. That way I can just do the megasquirt drop in on a weekend. Main downside is the motor is high mileage, though it seems to run pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted April 7, 2008 Share Posted April 7, 2008 Man that sucks, I've been there before two different times with two different engines, Don't give up just yet! The last time I snapped a EZout or "guaranteed" broken bolt remover and then a Titanium 15$ drill bit I had almost given up hope when I remembered a little gem of a tool I had...a dremel with a small rounded head carbide material remover. I bought this little thing 10 years ago when I first got my dremel and it still cuts flawlessly. You can pick them up at most any tool retailer, just be sure to get the rounded head and not the squared off head, this makes a huge difference. Basically, your going to approach this as if you where drilling with a drill bit, let the carbide do the work by smoothing and leveling the surface of the bolt+bit that are stuck in the head. once the surface is level enough, start grinding away an indention in the center of the broken bits and then slowing start to grind your way straight down. This will take a while, maybe 1 hour before you get all the drill bit and what not out. after I had the extractor out, and a large enough hole drill in the broken bolt, I moved on to my other drill bits and ever so slowly drilled the hole larger in 1/8" increments until I had drilled all of it out. at this point you can asses what to do. you can try to extract the remaining bolt out (it may be so thin its now loose, or the heat finally got to it.) ( you may also try and saturate the hole you just drilled with penetrating oil and see if that helps.) or you can just keep drilling it larger until you can rethread the head in a larger bolt diameter. I took the last approach and just bought a metric tap one size larger than the other bolts. Just be incredibly carefull that you don't drill too deep. throw a piece of tape on the drill bit to mark your depth and pay attention. the last time I did this, the entire operation from manifold removal (just remove both and get all that junk out of the way) to getting it all back together was six hours. +/- and hour or two for breaks or lunch and general thoughts. one last thing to note. The shavings that the carbide produce are like tiny little metal needles. wear safety glasses and nitrile gloves if you have them, don't rub your eyes, don't blow the shavings around, do not taunt them in anyway. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted April 7, 2008 Author Share Posted April 7, 2008 I even have a dremel too... I'm still thinking that with how much headache it is getting those manifolds off and on... I'm just gonna swap my motors. Hardest part will be getting the old motor out of the backyard. I think I'll HAVE to push the car out and pull the motor somewhere I have room to move around. But once that's done the rest will be easy. I'll also need to make sure I have a clean place to store the motor for now too. Then I'll go ahead and work on getting the head bolt situation fixed once it's on a stand. Plus that way I can check on my other turbo. This one is causing quite a bit of smoke and probably needs to be rebuilt anyways. Thanks for the tip though! I'll go buy a carbide dremel bit this week and keep it handy. Gotta love hybridZ advice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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