Ethanol Limits. Let's Talk Turkey

[Accurate Injection]

I should have some Videos of a 4 Cylinder running 8 injectors, 4 Injectors in the ITB Bodies, and 4 injectors spraying straight Ethanol into the horns! A Dealer is doing the Work, so we are at his time constraints!

 

ThE Cooling Effects even under N/A warrents the use and Cost in my opinion!

 

Kevin

[TimZ]

On the subject of power, here is a post I made to a similar thread:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showpost.php?p=858154&postcount=85

 

On mileage, I do think your goal of getting 35mpg is very optimistic, even with 14:1 compression. With the higher CR, you should be able to come within 10% of a typical mileage for gasoline. Honestly, I think you'd be hard pressed to get 35mpg from gas on an L-series Z.

 

I'm still doing a fair amount of tuning, which includes lots of time on boost, but I did try to check highway mileage - right now I'm seeing abouit 15mpg on the highway (my setup is a bit extreme, though )

[Gollum]

Not to discount running E85, but why not simply run an ethanol or methanol injection system? You do not have to convert your fuel system, you only use it under boost, you get the economy of gasoline, you get more power than E85 when tuned, and for forced induction motors you get the added benefit of a cooler intake charge. Add some water into that methanol mix and you get some benefits of in-cylinder cooling.

 

I am truly curious and not saying that methanol injection is better, but asking why opt for E85 over it.

 

E85 is, simplistically, gasoline with 15% ethanol.

 

As TimZ noted, E85 is 85% ethanol, technically. They add gasoline to pure ethanol to make it a poison (so it's not consumable alcohol) and THEN add 15% gasoline. From what I've read it comes out to about 17-18% gasoline.

 

But I'm thinking That might be exacly what I'll do. Add some extra injectors and use ethanol under boost. I still might consider the maxima head on flat top pistons, as I'm sure I can avoid knock on gasoline under light loads, and then slowly ramp up the ethanol injection before boost kicks in.

 

But why ethanol over methanol? Price. The two fuels are very similar, but ethanol is a little kinder to fuel systems, but it's well under $4 a gallon. Cheaper than any race fuel, and octane rating is around 100. We should be HAPPY if ethanol takes over from a performance stand point. I was watching a video with jay leno interviewing a performance engine builder, and they've had naturally aspirated ethanol engines running up to 18:1 compression. Imagine even 16:1 in a production car! I think that's the likely outcome if ethanol takes over eventually.

 

 

On the subject of power, here is a post I made to a similar thread:

http://forums.hybridz.org/showpost.php?p=858154&postcount=85

 

On mileage, I do think your goal of getting 35mpg is very optimistic, even with 14:1 compression. With the higher CR, you should be able to come within 10% of a typical mileage for gasoline. Honestly, I think you'd be hard pressed to get 35mpg from gas on an L-series Z.

 

I'm still doing a fair amount of tuning, which includes lots of time on boost, but I did try to check highway mileage - right now I'm seeing abouit 15mpg on the highway (my setup is a bit extreme, though )

 

Yea, I know 35mpg is optimistic. But I think I'll be able to get close. Whats the point of a goal if it's easy? It needs to border that line of sane and insane. I don't think 35mpg is that far out there, but farther than most get.

 

I currently drive about 65mph on the freeway and I've been very good about not getting on the throttle in almost all situations. I can easily get on the freeway and up to 65mph without going near boost.

 

I plan to remove any uncessary weight, and I'll be making an aluminum dash. My weight goal is around 2400 even. So she needs to loose about 80 pounds. But I'll also be adding metal for aerodynamics. I'll be blocking off a lot of the front end, and be adding things like headlight covers and vortex generators. I might need to get a fiberglass hood to reach my weight goals. A lexan hatch would be a bit extreme, but I could live with it on the street if it came to it.

 

 

 

Something I'd like for an experienced person to educate me on, is how the slower burning characteristics are going to affect things like timing, cam timing, cam phase, etc.

 

Also, ethanol burns slower, but we're talking about compressing it more. With ethanol at 16:1 compression burn faster than gasoline at 10:1?

[Flexicoker]

I'm running my '95 Camry on straight E85 right now. I haven't changed anything whatsoever. It idles a little rougher, and is a little sluggish under 1500rpm, but other than that and the faint smell of cheap tequila I can't tell the difference. I messed up my gas mileage calcs with my last tank of E40, but my best guesstimating says I only lost 1mpg.

[woldson]

Careful, in time it will eat natural rubber!

 

Gollum have you considered ceramic coating in order to help control ping?

I figure that it will be nessary with the higher c/r.

[Gollum]

I've thought about it. But I really want to keep this engine as budget as possible.

 

I'll be going to school comming this fall, and still working a full time job. I'll have a hard enough time working up the money just to pay for megasquirt and such.

 

That's kinda why I think I'm just going to have to get a flat top piston bottom and be happy with my P90 on top of it. That only gives me about a 8.7:1, but it'll have to do. I don't think I'll need much ethanol to reduce ping until I get up to about 10PSI on the stock turbo. By that point I should be pushing nearly 225hp to the wheels (if not a little more maybe), which is plenty for me.

[TimZ]

Is E85 coming to your area, or will you be relegated to using it in small amounts? Last I checked, there weren't many places carrying it in California. I'm lucky enough to have three stations now within about 4 miles.

[Gollum]

There's a station under construction in Concord, about 15 minutes from me, and not terribly out of the way.

 

For me right now it's more about making sure if E85 hits MOST pumps that I'm ready for it. I want to be ahead of the curve, not complaining about terrible gas mileage due to the ultra low compression of a stock L28ET. I think once engines are designed from the ground up to run E85 or more pure mixes, then there will be little, if any, MPG difference. Some people are seeing as little as 10% difference in MPG on E85 on current flex fuel vehicles.

 

Let's not forget that our cars are making MORE HP on ethanol. Here's my thinking. Take two engines with these specs:

 

2.0 Liters

Square bore/stroke

DOHC Design

Naturally Aspirated

200hp

 

One running ethanol with a chamber/head design optimized for it

One running gasoline with current gasoline optimizations

Ethanol running 16:1 or higher compression

Gasoline running 10:1

 

If the same gasoline engine would see an INCREASE in power with E85, then the ethanol version to make the same power can dramatically reduce the air intake of the engine. In fact I'd say smaller valves might be mandator in order to get the compression that high unless severely dome pistons were used.

 

I think that the difference in MPG between the two engines would be almost none existant. We keep saying that you burn more fuel per mile with ethanol but few people out there (talking about articles and such, not members here) consider the fact that there's more power availible with ethanol. Once engines are designed to the same power requirements and run higher compression, then we'll see what the difference really comes out to.

 

Ethanol can also run much leaner safer in perportion to it's stoich levels. That's something I'm trying to do research into right now. Many people have run E85 in regular everyday cars that are significantly old, and they run well enough. Some of these people are seeing little difference in MPG and my theory is that their engine is running increadibly lean as it can't seem to recalibrate itself. The ECU is probably assuming the O2 sensor is bad, or the MAF/MAP is bad. Running E85 at gasoline ratios (14:1 stoich) would be increadible lean, but with the cooling affect of ethanol it might be passable on many engines out there. At those ratios you'll be making much less power with E85 compared to gasoline, but the consumptions hasn't...

 

Enlighten me anyone?

[ktm]

Thank you for the clarification. I was reading up on ethanol as a fuel source, for both primary and secondary applications and never really researched E85.

 

I am by no means an expert, but based on the hours of reading I have done regarding fuel sources for secondary injection, I have come to the following conclusions.

 

The chemical properties of ethanol and methanol are a bit different, and one will see that methanol has a higher latent heat of evaporatization (able to absorb more heat), higher octane (115 versus 119), cools the intake charge more (when secondary injecting), burns slower, burns cooler, has a lower stoich (more fuel required), etc. All of the above leads to more power over ethanol when tuned for it.

 

E85 and ethanol are great though. I can see my own reasons for converting to E85 for one of the reasons you mentioned, no secondary tank. Saying that, the secondary tank setup, when used in conjunction with a failsafe, offers other advantages.

 

For instance, my intake air charge (after the I/C) is cooled considerably, like a 18 degree C temperature change. Cooler air = denser air = more power.

 

Saying that, after reading your response it has me contemplating an E85 conversion when E85 is more widely available in California.

[woldson]

Oddly I have one 1.5 miles from my house, may be the only one in town. (I've never seen another)

It is fantatic that you will follow this route. I do believe that you are one of the few that can accomplish this goal....(ESPECIALLY ON A BUDGET!)

 

 

So get her done so you can further advise me;)

[Gollum]

Ok, so to tie this discussion back to Z cars.

 

I'm thinking that for myself I'm going to start hunting for a MN47. Putting that on my turbo bottom end will give me around 9:1 compression.

 

I think that should be fine for the sub 10psi realm on our current gas (E10)... IF there's really close to 10% ethanol. The pumps say "Up to 10% ethanol by volume", but that means it could theoretically be 5% too right?

 

Then once E85 is more widely availible I can just swap out the block for one with flat top pistons. That should leave me with about a 11:1 compression. Not as high as I might want for E85, but certainly much better than the budget options of using a P90 head. (custom dish pistons or major shaving requiring much more work)

 

Now I just need to find a MN47 for under $100...

[woldson]

I personally can't decide between the heads that I have and the one I will use. I have 2 p79, 1p90a and 1 n47.

 

Now accoding to this thread, at the bottom the nm47 has great potential: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=136202&highlight=MN47

 

The question I have, (I know this is a sore spot) what about the steel liners and a turbo? I wonder if 1fastz leaves the liners in?

[Gollum]

I've never seen a single post of 1 Fast Z talking about taking the liners out, but seen plenty of threads in which he's preached about how his heads with liners flow just as well than without.

 

But most of the work of his I've seen has been on NA motors, not turbo. It would be interesting to hear his input on the risks regarding heat and such. I'm betting he'd say to just leave them in.

 

As long as they don't start falling apart they should be fine. I don't think at street boost levels that will be a problem.

[TimZ]

The question I have, (I know this is a sore spot) what about the steel liners and a turbo? I wonder if 1fastz leaves the liners in?

 

EGTs with E85 generally run 2-300 degF cooler than gasoline, so I doubt that heat would be much of an issue with the liners.

 

Also - to address an earlier question that I don't think ever got answered, timing requirements for E85 are very similar to gasoline - you can run the same timing map in most cases. If you have been having to dial out a lot of timing to reduce ping on gas, you can most likely dial some timing back in with E85 (assuming you are running proper AFRs)

[Tony D]

I'm probably a bit jaded to comment enthusiastically here...

I went to TMEN Alcohol Fuel Seminars as an impressionistic and idealistic youth...this was the late 70's when President Carter decided that you should be able to make 'farm use alcohol' for running your farm implements. Well...I made over 500 gallons one summer. Somewhere I have the copious BATF records for that laying up in my parent's attic, if they haven't thrown them out by now... Sugar Beet Based...

 

Made a dedicated VW engine to run it in my 62 VW Microbus (get the picture here, man? Like totally hollistic, man!). The original engine was 8:1 running on gasoline and got maybe 10-12mpg running a center-mount 48IDA. I used the 48IDA setup because it was cheaper than having to buy two sets of larger inlet needle-&-seat combos to run the alky...

 

Anyway, after the conversion (simple really in a VW, flycut the heads, or pull your barrell spacers to change piston deck height) I was running 13.5:1 CR and while the engine made what felt like more power, it got...

 

Are you ready for this?

 

A best of 7mpg. Driving around town I got maybe 5 if I was lucky. So about half the mileage I got with the pure gasoline engine.

 

Cold drivability was atrocious, I gave up and converted back as the temperatures dipped closer to the 50's and 40's and used the remaining Alky to make my own "Gasahol" at around a 20% mix of Ethanol to Petrol simply because I got my Federal Excise Taxes back from the gasoline I bought doing that---you had to mix at least 10% to get the rebate from the Feds...and records records records!

 

I'm sure EFI would change some of the drivability issues, and yeah, during humid August you could see the stuff 'milk up' if you left it uncorked for too long.

 

If I was going to do something like this again, it'd be with CNG or LPG on a dedicated engine. I've lived with those too, and while I can't make enough CNG from my own personal sources like I could with Ethanol... At least I would retain the identical fuel economy as the original petroleum engine I supplanted.

 

I don't see Ethanol as any fix for anything other than getting All Dat Money to go someplace it sholdn't be in the first place.

[510six]

Actually, I am running a dual fuel system now using 100% methanol with two 160lb fuel injectors in the intake track providing 35% of the total fuel under boost. Having run methanol for over a year now what I would strongly suggest is using Klozt Uplon with any alcohol based fuel and only using "black or grey" hard anodized military spec AN fittings, stainless steel hard fuel lines and teflon braided AN lines. A plastic or stainless fuel cell is manditory , for a fuel pump the Bosch 044 unit has been flawless and Mallory makes a alcohol compatable EFI regulator that works fine as well. 444 rwh @ 17 psi .

 

 

The next step is running 90% methanol under boost using 6 160lb methanol compatable injectors on the fuel rail . Then running 37lb vs the 72lb injectors on the gasoline fuel system this should do several things, first the car should idle better the second is that 87 oct can be used the third is when driving normally fuel milage should be improved. 30 mpg on the freeway with the six speed should be obtainable. Did I mention that the new motor being built will be 9-1 compression and over 500 rwh is the goal on the street. The same could be done with E85 provided that care is selected in both tuning and fuel system components.

[TimZ]

I'm probably a bit jaded to comment enthusiastically here...

I went to TMEN Alcohol Fuel Seminars as an impressionistic and idealistic youth...this was the late 70's when President Carter decided that you should be able to make 'farm use alcohol' for running your farm implements. Well...I made over 500 gallons one summer. Somewhere I have the copious BATF records for that laying up in my parent's attic, if they haven't thrown them out by now... Sugar Beet Based...

 

Made a dedicated VW engine to run it in my 62 VW Microbus (get the picture here, man? Like totally hollistic, man!). The original engine was 8:1 running on gasoline and got maybe 10-12mpg running a center-mount 48IDA. I used the 48IDA setup because it was cheaper than having to buy two sets of larger inlet needle-&-seat combos to run the alky...

 

Anyway, after the conversion (simple really in a VW, flycut the heads, or pull your barrell spacers to change piston deck height) I was running 13.5:1 CR and while the engine made what felt like more power, it got...

 

Are you ready for this?

 

A best of 7mpg. Driving around town I got maybe 5 if I was lucky. So about half the mileage I got with the pure gasoline engine.

 

Cold drivability was atrocious, I gave up and converted back as the temperatures dipped closer to the 50's and 40's and used the remaining Alky to make my own "Gasahol" at around a 20% mix of Ethanol to Petrol simply because I got my Federal Excise Taxes back from the gasoline I bought doing that---you had to mix at least 10% to get the rebate from the Feds...and records records records!

 

I'm sure EFI would change some of the drivability issues, and yeah, during humid August you could see the stuff 'milk up' if you left it uncorked for too long.

 

If I was going to do something like this again, it'd be with CNG or LPG on a dedicated engine. I've lived with those too, and while I can't make enough CNG from my own personal sources like I could with Ethanol... At least I would retain the identical fuel economy as the original petroleum engine I supplanted.

 

I don't see Ethanol as any fix for anything other than getting All Dat Money to go someplace it sholdn't be in the first place.

 

Well, buying E85 at the pump is a whole different animal than making and storing your own, and a carb'ed microbus running hydrous ethanol in the 70's probably isn't the best example for drivability in the context of this thread.

 

The "85" part of E85 varies from 70 to 85% depending on the season specifically to address the cold start issue (normal gas blends vary by season too, btw). I have found that it needs to run richer than my gas calibration while the warming up, but now that it's tuned, my car is more drivable than it has been in years. And I'm pretty certain it's making significantly more power.

 

Also, I think I mentioned this before, but I'm currently seeing close to 15mpg on the highway, which might not sound like much but I don't think it's really much different than I was seeing on gas (maybe 19). As far as the 7mpg comment, I'm seeing better than that (8 to 9) even when I'm doing mostly full throttle tuning, and this engine is making north of 700hp at the flywheel.

 

Where the money "ought to go" is a political discussion that has no place in this thread - sorry.

[510six]

"Where the money "ought to go" is a political discussion that has no place in this thread - sorry."

 

I agree, the option of using E85 is viable as there is a station about 3 miles from my house. The plan was to run 1000cc injectors on the main fuel rail with E85 and being supplimented with 30% methanol via two 160lb injectors under boost. Since the methanol is my intercooler the decision to run six 1600cc injectors and take full advantage of the better cooling properties and the higher octain of methanol was made.

__________________

[Tony D]

My comment about the money is directly related to the fuels viability. Without heavy subsidies, it's not cost effective. For the exact same reasons I stated from my experience in the late 70's.

 

Without the subsidies, your supply of 'affordable wonder-fuel' will dry up post haste.

 

The 5-7 mpg was in relation to the 10 to 12 I got using pure gasoline. The single mount 48IDA is a terrible street setup for a VW, but when using alchohol it was dismal. I have posted in the past that EFI will remedy a lot of the drivability problems...but the basic fact remains unchanged: Its' a fuel source that is not economically viable on a large scale without massive government subsidies. If someone chooses to hitch their cart to a horse that is fully dependent on the government's 'constancy of purpose' so be it...I just don't trust the future availability of the fuel. Even in Brazil with a developed Alcohol Infrastructure, their 'energy independence' attained last year was through a massive offshore petroleum discovery, not through some miraculous breakthrough of home-sourced ethanol.

 

Ironic truth be told, most of the ethanol is hydrocracked out of petroleum chains in refineries because it's cheaper by far... When vodka manufacturers buy in bulk from petroleum refiners for their basic product, and then flavor for taste you gotta step back and look at the economics of it.

 

What did I learn from my experience? I CAN subsist on Alcohol on a limited basis with motorized conveyances if I have the time to do the refining. And as such that experiment was a success. For a viable fuel long term, IMO the economics won't change. It's energy intensive. Doomed to failure without massive subsidies.

 

So in that context, the economics surely do play a part in the thread from where I sit at least.

[Gollum]

And as the thread author I'd like to thank you wiki D. You live up to that name. You obviously know what you're talking about and contributed honest experience to the thread.

 

And you kept it pretty unbiased in the political sense, and for that I thank you. It was a worthy contribution. Don't fear it that those words will fall on deaf ears.