510six Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Currently , the L28/30 stroker uses a dual fuel system with 35% of the total fuel being methanol provided via two 1600cc injectors on the intake tubing. The "main" fuel system is gasoline (crappy CA 91 oct) with six 72lb injectors , the car at 17 psi with the T67 makes 440rwh and about 440 fpt and delivers 24-25 mpg on the freeway. http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2071134 The new system will use either 370cc or 240cc injectors on the main gasoline fuel rail, and the fuel milage and idle will improve with the smaller injectors and 87 rather than 91 oct can be used. A second stainless steel fuel rail using six 160lb methanol compatable injectors will be used with two Bosch 044 pumps providing the fuel from a 3 gallon plastic fuel cell. The fuel will switch from gasoline to methanol under boost thanks to the secondary injector control from the AEM EMS which also provides sequetial injection to the main fuel rail. This should provide better power under boost with no intercooler being needed and being able to lean the mixture to 15-1 or so for highway travel and with the .50 overdrive from the six speed should give impressive mileage. 500 rear wheel horsepower with 20-22 psi with the T67 using 90% methanol under boost shouldn`t be a problem as over 440 rwh was possible with 35% methanol. At the drag strip a small shot of nitrous will be used to make 600 rwh or so. http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/efi_accessories.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerAce Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Methinks you aren't factoring in the cost of the methanol.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1 fast z Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 If your EMS can controll the duty cycle at idle, why would switching to smaller injecters help at idle? Should be able to run 17-1+ AFR on cruise already. Basicly all your stating is that you can run 87 octane usually, and add meth on top of that for boost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yeah, shouldn't you be able to get the pulse width low enough with the 72lb injectors operated sequentially? Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted July 28, 2008 Author Share Posted July 28, 2008 "If your EMS can controll the duty cycle at idle, why would switching to smaller injecters help at idle? Should be able to run 17-1+ AFR on cruise already." The larger the injector the more difficult it becomes to modulate idle quaility, I am talking about 72lb and larger fuel injectors. http://www.sdsefi.com/injectors.htm I am planning on using 240cc Honda high impedence injectors on the 'main" fuel rail and controlling the additional six 1600cc low impedence with a AEM injector driver. http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=83 http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/PartsJPEGs/Injectors/0280150947Blue_8.jpg All I am really doing now is using 91 oct. with large injectors and adding methanol as boost comes up,what I plan on doing is adding more methanol under boost and using lower octain gasoline. The methanol will be bought in 55 gallon drums and is used only when in boost with my current 3 gallon fuel cell using boost often the methanol will last for about 3 tanks of gas. With 3 times more methanol being used I expect a 1-1 ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinOlson Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I don't believe you need the injector driver box for the secondary 160lb/hr injectors. Since they won't be used at really low pulse widths you should be able to control them fine. You just need to make sure you keep the current usage down to a reasonable level per injector output. I'd imagine you are going to pair the secondaries to injector outputs 7,8 & 9? Regards, Justin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clifton Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 For the money and time it will take to re-tune for the 240's, I would just add another injector to the meth side and run the 72lbers. Then you can run run even higher boost. My idle pulse width is good with 700 cc/hr on a 3 liter and that's really the only thing to worry about. Going from Az to Ca. I got 1 mpg worse than a friend with the exact same set up Z with the exact same engine but he's running factory 440's on the stock ecu were I had 700's/MSII and lower CR. I have since bumped up my cruise timing so I'm probably as good or better now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted July 29, 2008 Author Share Posted July 29, 2008 My initial plans were to run 1000cc injectors on the "main" fuel rail and run 70% E85 and 30% methanol. Running six 1600cc injectors ensures proper fuel distribution . As for the cost it would cost more to alter the "main' fuel system to run the E85 than modify the methanol system to run 6 injectors rather than two. My fuel system is basically a copy of a friends with an H22 Honda VTEC turbo motor in a Del Sol who also uses AEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardBlack Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 If you want high mileage, you need closed loop lean operation. Even gasoline can withstand 16.0:1; particularly on a low compression engine. I've set cars up to that ratio in cruise and it definitely helped, but I don't know if you are going to get an old skool engine that makes 500 whp to average 30 mpg. Getting injectors with a good spray pattern is also very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluded Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 the other thing to consider is the spray pattern... in general, the smaller the injector the better the spray pattern and atomization at small pulse widths. tuning for lean burn at part throttle in closed loop should get in the 30mpg range; remember the t56 6th gear is freakin low numerically. Justin nailed it, too. injector o/p 7, 8, and 10 paired through the peak and hold driver is the plan right now. i considered pairing or tripling the injectors through the ems drivers, but it changes the null time, and to be honest i just don't like the jury-rigged approach to fuel control (though it may work fine, i know, so i'm not judging anyone who chooses to do it that way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted August 10, 2008 Author Share Posted August 10, 2008 After talking with my engine builder/fuel injection guru. E85 is avalable less than 3 miles from the house and E85 is not as corrosive as methanol and will require a simpler (and cheaper) fuel system. The main reason methanol was used was it`s high octain value and high latent heat of evaporation , ethanol has a lower octain rating and a correspondingly lower ability to take heat out of the intake charge. However, as I am not using an intercooler( I should say I am using a chemical rather than a physical intercooler) E85 at 100% actually should cool better than the 35% methanol currently being used. E85 is also 105 octain which is actually better than the numbers with 35% methanol. This is a sample datalog with the T67 @ 14 psi, it show the air temps dropping below 50* on an 80* day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 I am surprised you need to much fuel. I am running a single 700 cc/min FJO racing methanol injector and 6 503 cc/min (440s flow tested at 503) fuel injectors. I dynoed 390 ft-lbs to the wheels a month ago. I believe I am now over 410 ft-lbs since I have cleared up many of the issues I had that day. My accelerometer on my LMA-3 showed a 30 ft-lb increase over the same stretch of road with similar conditions. I am now fuel limited though, both my fuel injectors and my methanol injector. I am going to add an additional methanol injector in a month or so, which will help me reduce my DC's on my primary injectors. Edit: This thread and Timz comments in other threads got me investigating my fuel systems compatibility with E85. I am running a teflon lined hose for my fuel system, A1000-6 FPR, Walbro pump, and a Pallnet fuel rail. Of all these components, only the rail is not compatible. My fuel tank pickup is stainless steel and so is the return (my tank was modified). Hmmmm....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted August 11, 2008 Author Share Posted August 11, 2008 It takes roughly twice the amount of methanol to make the same horsepower as gasoline, so injector and fuel pump values have to be doubled. So, to make the 600rwh it would take a fuel system capable of making 1200rwh and six 1600cc injectors and -10 line and a $700 fuel pump.With the E85 it takes roughly 25-30% (depending on who you talk to) more fuel so two -6 lines and two Bosch 044 pumps and a -8 return should work just fine . The gasoline primary fuel system isn`t going to be adding any fuel under boost, so the E85 components have to be capable of flowing 600 rwh . Just make sure your own alcohol fuel pump and lines are large enough to provide fuel to the extra injectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted April 25, 2009 Author Share Posted April 25, 2009 These are some pics of my current setup, the new motor was fired up a few days ago and the motor will be broke in on the gasoline fuel system. After the motor is broke in it`s wiring in the AEM injector driver and getting a "street" tune done on the E85 fuel system, then it`s going to be finished up on the dyno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deluded Posted April 27, 2009 Share Posted April 27, 2009 "broke in" is sooo negative how about seating the rings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
510six Posted April 27, 2009 Author Share Posted April 27, 2009 "broke in" is sooo negative how about seating the rings! LOL, seating the rings it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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