220 volt plug for compressor and welder

[mr jdm]

alright folks I need some help before I try to do this. I think I have a pretty good understanding of electricity but need some help before I actually start.

 

I live in a townhouse and the garages are detached, luckily The strip of garages, the first garage has a service panel in it and sure thats my garage!. I technically cant even mess with it but I really dont care becaues nobody is going ot know.

 

I opened up the panel and looked in it. There are no more empty spaces left to add a circuit breaker. There are a few double pole breakres and then there are a majority of single pole 15amp breakers. Those 15amp breakers are the circuit breakers for the few 120 volt ciruicts in every individual garage.

 

Now, since there isnt a space to add a circuit breaker. Can I just TAP 2 single pole 15 amp breakers and run those wires to a receptacle? That would mean each of the 2 single pole breakers would be feeding 2 power wires, do you get what im saying? would that be ok?

 

Also, the air compressor I have is rated at 15amp, would 30amps be safe and would a 30amp be enough to run a 210amp welder?

[rdsk8ter]

what brand of pannel is it? most of the breakers are avalible in 1/2 size breakers. I wouldnt reccomend you plug a 15 amp into a 30amp recepticle. You wont get hurt from it unless something goes wrong inside of the appliance. a 210 amp lol sorry for being a little blunt but thats not what it draws look for a nameplate and it will have a spot that says max circiut ampacity or ocpd size if you need help shoot me a message I am an electrical contractor and am more then willing to help you however I can.

[mr jdm]

 

would this be ok and safe to do, tapping 2 single pole breakers?

[warrenHLS3083301]

if you have a washer and (DRYER) you may already have a 240v outlet.

[JSM]

I thought you could do something like that. I would run by Home Depot or Lowes and ask one of their electricians though.

 

Is your dryer gas or electric? Is it even in the garage? Depending how far your garage is from 220v outlet you could make a long extension cord, but I think that is going to cost $$$ for the wire.

 

http://www.doityourself.com/stry/qnaelectrical10

 

http://www.spadepot.com/spacyclopedia/wiring-hot-tub-spa.htm

[mr jdm]

if you have a washer and (DRYER) you may already have a 240v outlet.

 

The garage isnt attached to my condo. There is a strip of 10 garages, the first garage, which is mine, just so happens to have th service panel in it. So I can do whatever I want without anybody knowing.

[JSM]

The garage isnt attached to my condo. There is a strip of 10 garages, the first garage, which is mine, just so happens to have th service panel in it. So I can do whatever I want without anybody knowing.

 

Hmmm... I would just be carefull. You don't want to get busted for stealing power if each garage doesn't have it's own meter.

 

If each garage does, have at it!

[mr jdm]

haha each garage doesnt have its own meter. I dont feel bad though. Its only for the compressor and welder which very rarely will be used.

 

I still need help getting through this though. Another question I have, if this is a subpanel in the garage, which I think it might. I cannot put a ground wire in the neutral bar right?

[woldson]

Dude, you are asking for trouble here.

 

Honestly, power is something we use constantly so it become mundane in a sense.

 

It is VERY dangerous!

Putting in appropriate breakers, WIRE GA. and placement of said wire and receptacle is very important. I would venture to say that 90% of all electrical fires are from over loading of circuits. Breakers just don't blow at said amp ratings. Plus not all breakers are created equal. Most apts are built with bargain bin components that minimally meet code.

 

If this was your own house and you were single it would be one thing, you risk others and that is a whole nother situation.

I would rather do a cheap break job on my car and tap my breaking system that would cause potential overload, than, do a 100mph on a busy freeway.

 

With no insurance! (A mod like that leaves you wide open for a law suit!)

 

Be like getting married 20 times having 20 kids with each gal and being your own lawyer in each divorce! Probably cost about the same.

[Kirby260]

 

would this be ok and safe to do, tapping 2 single pole breakers?

 

GOOD GOD NO!

 

The fact that you even considered this as a solution means you don't have the knowledge or understanding to be playing around with this stuff!

 

Call a qualified electrician!

[grumpyvette]

Ok lets say,youve rented a garage, or storage space to work on your car while your garage is being built!

youve got access to electricity but not the correct outlets..

the correct route is to have a qualified electrician add a sub panel , installation, of which allows extra places to add extra breakers, naturally that has limits due too the total potential draw rates,the feed amps, wire gauges, permits,and local laws. (BUT the land lords very unlikely to allow that)

 

THE correct answer in YOUR case is to buy a portable welder/generator,(and mount it on a small trailer, possiably with a compressor) that allows you to weld or power a portable compressor, I had the exact same problem at one time, heres the solution, it allows both ARC and TIG (with an optional equipment package) and supplied both 110VOLT and 220 VOLT feeds

 

http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=K1419-5'>http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=K1419-5

 

heres a smaller cheaper option, (that includes a mig welder and small trailer)

 

http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=907345'>http://www.welders-direct.com/merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=907345

 

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=72

 

HERES AN OLD POST AN BITS OF IT MAY BE USEFUL

 

Ok Ill assume your looking into purchaseing or already have purchased your first DECENT SHOP welder, something like a 220 volt 180-350 amp range, in a ARC,MIG, or TIG and in most cases it both HEAVY and doesn,t come with a cart, so youll need one, so it makes an easy and necessary first project

example ,

the three main welders in my shop

MY LINCOLN ARC welder weights 630LBS

THE MILLER TIG weights 930lbs

the MILLER MIG is a newer model and weights only about 200lbs

ALL WITHOUT the argon tank(thats easily 180lbs extra)

 

YOUR BOUND TO HAVE A STEEL SUPPLY STORE NEAR YOU, THEY WILL GENERALLY CUT THE STEEL TO LENGTH FOR MINIMAL COST, IF you PAY extra and know the lenghts and type of steel, since cutting steel can be a P.I.T.A. without the correct tools ID strongly advise useing thier services as they are far more likely to get it correct on the first try,

measure the welder base add about 3/4" for clearance in width and 10" extra length ,

EXAMPLE ,

lets say the welder measures 24" bye 40" (your cart would be 24.375" bye 50" so youll want two 50" sections of 3" angle and two 24.375 sections of 3" angle in this example and 5 sections of 1" box 24.375" long)and use that as the cart width,& length,

youll of course use the real dim. of your welder)

Id suggest using 3" angle iron as its both easy to weld and nearly indestructable in use, lay the angle iron on the concrete floor , on top of a sheet of junk plywood ,to tack weld with one edge flat, (THE EDGE youve had cut at a 45 degee angle) and one edge strait up an the two long edges parrallel, have the supplier cut two that width ,they weld the same way with the edge up placed inside the two sides so theres a rough 3" corner seam on each corner, and a 3" lip all the way around, USE A CARPENERS SQUARE and CHECK the 90 DEGREE CORNER STRAITNESS BEFORE DOING MORE THAN TACK WELDING, once its strait and level and tack welded move it to the welding bench or place it on a sheet of expendable plywood as you don,t want to be welding dirrectly on concrete as it bioth chips and stains if you do) youll want the corners cut at 45 degrees, so the inside flat on the floor sides shorter and the outside vertical edge is longer ,so they form a large rectangular pan with no center, but a lip thats 3" all the way around to set the welder on, buy five sections of 1" box steel the same width and weld those parralel to the front and back edge on the bottom base and the second of each pair about 3" in towards the middle but parralel, too the ends to weld the four SWIVEL caster wheels on the base too, (use at least 350-500 lb rated swivel casters so you can easily move the welder in the shop, and bolting the casters to the drilled 1" box before welding is not a bad idea here) this prevents flexing, weld the fifth 1" box steel ,vertical and weld a strap to keep the tank steady if you have an argon tank, if not the extra length can be used to store supplies......BTW some guys drop a piece of 3/4" plywood in to form a floor for the welder to sit on, (not a bad idea) QUESTIONS?

BTW 1/4-3/8" thick 3" angle iron is fairly hard to screw up with bad welds and a good place to practice your first welds on those 45 degree corner seams, the 4 parrelel box steel cross braces the casters mount too further increase the stiffness and strength, when youve finnished you can paint the cart and youll have learned a good deal about how your welder works....btw most welders come with instructions as to hooking up the ground clamps, type of sticks, or wire and settings so read the instructions BEFORE STARTING AND DON,T EXPECT TO GET IT 100% CORRECT ON THE FIRST TRY

_________________

if you can,t smoke the tires from a 60mph rolling start your engine needs work!

looking to buy a used welder?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, if your looking to buy a welder ID strongly advise taking a course on welding FIRST so you understand what your looking at and what to expect and so you have a good feel for what your looking to do and what equipment is necessary,then stop by a few large welding shops and ask the owner if hes ever considered upgrading his equipment? stop by a few welder dealers and ask about trade ins.?

most will jump at the chance to unload older equipment if given a reasonable offer, the TRICK is knowing EXACTLY what your looking at, having a good idea as to age and condition and value and getting a DEAL, Id generally avoid anything priced higher than 1/2-1/3 of current retail.

http://www.welders-direct.com/

https://weldingsupply.securesites.co...ogs.pl?UNDEF::

but be fair! include all the accessories in the bid!

look around your local area for the guy or guys that do welder repairs, they can very often get you a decent deal on a used welder or point you to someone whos looking to upgrade thier current equipment that you might be able to make a good deal for on thier older equipment.

just stick to name brands , and ID STRONGLY ADVISE STICKING TO WELDERS that REQUIRE a 220volt single phase electrical feed

lincoln

miller

ESAB

HOBART

HTP

THERMADYNE

because having access to parts and service and manuals is MANDATORY

if you do buy equipment thats USED ask for a demonatration on BOTH the thin sheet metal like patching a fender and exhaust pipes and thicker 1/4-3/8" thick stuff

 

DON,t forget the welder requires a MATCHED electrical feed in your garage and it may require a tank of shield gas and may require accessories or longer cords, and consumables like wire for MIG units or sticks of filler rod for stick or tig welders, all those things add up fast!

[mr jdm]

grumpyvette i appreciate you posting in my threads,your a real smart guy. you went a bit off topic from my original question buts ok.

 

as far as getting a generate/welder. I am definetly not spending that kind of cash. I can get a great deal on a hobart handler 210 so I just need to figure out how im gonna get my 220v hook up.

[mark]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chicago_Fire

 

[rdsk8ter]

Ok you have enough room to add the 220 outlet what you need to do is get some twin breakers square d qo style move the two reds circled onto the left twin breaker move the two blue to the bottom twin breakerturn them back on this will leave 2 open slots for a square d qo breaker 2 pole 30 amp. Get some 1/2 flex about the length you need to get the plug where you need it. Get a small roll of 10-3 nmb cable and shove it throught the flex (before you mount it). you will also need a couple flex connectors and enough straps to secure it every 3 feet. you will need a 4 square deep box a single gang mud ring and a recepticle that matches your cord end (the recepticle cannot exceed 30 amps!!!) dont forget a cover plate too. you will need to cut some drywall below an open knockout in the bottom of the panel about 8" down 1 " wide(ish). run the wires up the green and the white need to go onto the ground bar under there own lugs do not double any wires!!!! then land the hots qo breakers are like caddys you are very safe with them. again I still say you should call a sparky to help you out they will without permits but it might cost a little more

 

[mr jdm]

thanks a lot rad, appreciate it. Thats exactly what I needed to learn woot woot, had no idea "twin" breakers were around haha.

[srgunz]

The compressor also needs its own breaker. If it runs on 220V then you will a 2 pole 15 amp breaker for it. That is 4 spaces you will need. Still can be done.

You also can even pick up a 4 circuit sub panel and feed it from the garage panel.

[mr jdm]

The compressor also needs its own breaker. If it runs on 220V then you will a 2 pole 15 amp breaker for it. That is 4 spaces you will need. Still can be done.

You also can even pick up a 4 circuit sub panel and feed it from the garage panel.

 

double pole breakers require 2 spaces not 4. if you read rdsk8ers post you can see he is explaining that I am going to turn 4 circuit breakrs into 2 by using twin breakers, therefore freeing up 2 spaces for a doubel pole.

[rdsk8ter]

What he is saying is the run two seperate 220v circiuts witch is over your skill leven just run the one and plug and un plug whatever you need at the time

[woldson]

The compressor also needs its own breaker. If it runs on 220V then you will a 2 pole 15 amp breaker for it. That is 4 spaces you will need. Still can be done.

You also can even pick up a 4 circuit sub panel and feed it from the garage panel.

 

This though will require you to run appropriate gage wire.

You also have to isolate neutral and ground in the sub panel and run four wires off the main box. 2hot 1 neutral 1 ground.

All grounds go to the ground bus and neutrals to the neutral bus.

Neutrals and hots have to be marked at bot boxes.

 

I still recremmend calling an electriction!

[dr_hunt]

Code says you have to calculate ground fault currents and load currents to correctly size the wire. It also says that each piece of equipment needs to be properly protected. The air compressor is probably not going to use as much current as the welder so you really probably need two outlets not one, but you could get away with one. The outlet needs to be a 30 amp or larger IMO. I have a 50 amp outlet receptacle.

 

Ohm the ground buss to make sure it's grounded and every other bit of advice is correct with the exception of the chicago fire.