How should I go about trying to start up a reputation for performance engines/work

[josh817]

Warning:

Large post below, read with caution to avoid literary meltdown.

 

Alright so my dad is finally getting serious with his shop. He has had his shop for almost 10 years and has been building race engines and doing restorations for the British car lovers for like a side job just for fun sort of thing. He's earned himself a respectable reputation of the Triumph Guru around here and apparently Kas Kastner fancies his work too and sometimes they mingle with each other like typical old school racers.

 

So thats the pre-story. Now that I have my Z as a first car and I'm generally such a cheap bastard, I figure why pay someone to do something I can probably do, which uh.. really helped out when I built my motor and the only thing I had to pay someone else for was machine work which was $400 for everything. I try to keep costs down as much as possible without sacrificing reliability or performance. I am now working as like his right hand man at the shop for $15/hr. I like it, and he likes it because we get to spend time together. We just finished making his business card and he's starting up as a distributor here in the states for some Fiarona kit car. He's expanding, and I sure as hell would like to expand with this $15/hr deal. Its better pay than any other 18 year old I know and I beat ALL the competition, the closest would be Dad and he does $45/hr, next up are some other guys with $60-$90 depending on the work.

 

I still want to work under Dad's business so I can build up the shops reputation but I'd like to be "That guy who builds killer motors" rather than "Ed's son who needs a hair cut and drives a Z car". I have two customers currently, one of them I do general maintenance and race prep. on his Spitfire. Dad does the really particular stuff like welding the diffs and building the motors for him while I just do suspension and the hard labor wrench hand stuff which is only because the customer can't afford anything more than what I charge. Actually he was so stubborn to pay an 18 year old kid $15/hr and tried to talk me down to $9/hr. Second customer is a Datsun 2000 Roadster which needs a new motor. I would LOVE this except Dad spoke for me while he was woo-ing in the customer. The car had been sitting at another shop for over a year and hadn't been touched so Dad told him about my motor and told him I could do a performance motor for him for $3000 thinking that the Datsun 2000 Roadster ran an L4 motor... Its a U20 motor where parts are retardedly priced (oil pump is $500 since they stopped making them and the people who hoard them charge that price). I'll be lucky to walk away from this thing with a profit once we're done...

 

So I'm not sure if I should do like all sorts of work and specialize in Datsun stuff or what. I have British cars, a BMW, Datsuns, and even my physics teacher is interested in having me rebuild him a Honda motor. I'm not sure how to go about building a reputation though. I mean I can build that Roadster motor, give people rides in my Z, maybe post in the Vendors section on here but there has to be something that grabs peoples confidence. Right now handing their work over to an 18 year old who barely charges anything doesn't really sound to great. I know if I wore my HybridZ appearel at the shop they can see that I'm serious, since we all know HybridZ members mean business but never do work without a beer within reach although I prefer a margarita. I attend our vintage racing club events (CVAR) and have become a known person to the guy who runs an ex CP 240z but I think he already has a high budget performance builder by the looks of his lap times... Sometimes Dad's buddies will invite us to track days with all the British cars and stuff so that will be good especially now that I'm doing paint and body work so my car doesn't look trashy.

 

I think the main thing I need right now would be people to do business with because the finished product that you send off at the end of the day acts as advertising, drawing in more customers. Right now my aim is more for street cars that just want a good performing motor rather than some crazy 400hp race motor. Obviously the guys with an unlimited/large budget will go to the people who have a reputation at hand.

 

Suggestions anyone?

[essdeezee]

I think the main thing I need right now would be people to do business with because the finished product that you send off at the end of the day acts as advertising, drawing in more customers.

 

Suggestions anyone?

 

I think you're on the right track with this part of your writing. What you need to do is get some experience building motors, blowing them up, and building them until they stop blowing up. (I don't know your actual experience level)

 

For a start, that means building some for people in the datsun community for next to nothing on top of parts. No reputation=no incentive to pay top dollar, or really pay much at all.

 

Your work and your customer service will determine your reputation.

 

Do good work, serve your customers well, and you will be able to sell your services for a reasonable amount.

 

If you want to be "that guy who builds killer motors" you best get started doing just that!

 

I'd say "good luck", but I don't believe luck has much to do with it.

 

Do well.

[josh817]

Well nothing has happened to my motor but then again it hasn't racked up tons of miles yet. :] I know the way my dad got started was building motors for friends in the garage. Personally, I think $15/hr is next to nothing especially when you consider that 10-15 hours of work is all that is really needed, maybe not even that, to build a basic motor. My stroker took me 2 months but thats because I had waited for parts and had to wait to get money for more parts. If I have everything sitting there ready to go it doesn't take much at all other than extreme attention to detail for quality sake. If it takes 10 hours thats only $150 in labor plus parts which I don't think I would mark up from catalog prices for right now. I just really enjoy building motors. I loved doing mine but all the spending I had done kind of poopoo'd the excitement. If I can build hot motors for people, make money, please them, have fun, that would be really cool.

 

I do need to try out different products. I know dad guarantees every street motor he builds as long as he buys the parts since he goes to places he knows produce quality parts. If the customer brings in their own stuff, for instance a customer brought in their own oil pump and then they wound up blowing the bearings from oil starvation after the pump failed, dad will not fix that free of charge. For race motors, anything goes, **** happens. Some of his customers race in CVAR which attend tracks around here so he will usually attend the first race weekend on the motor with the customer at the if they are new to things and need help. Any time after that we plan on charging $150 per weekend because if we attend the races, we will do flag work which pays $150 for two days. This way we don't dump money into driving several hours to each track on our own pockets.

 

Maybe I should setup base prices for labor on certain things. For instance, I can lighten, balance, and polish rods but that takes a lot of labor (20 hours for mine I think) which you can't really charge fully for otherwise its stupid expensive so you say I'll do the rods for $200 or whatever, I think Dad does the same when he ports heads however I am not going to try and port someone elses head for them. I'm finding that most of the time I'm working, I like a set amount of labor hours/set charge. Work on the Spitfire for most of the stuff takes less than what the factory labor guide says by like half an hour, maybe a full hour. There are also times like the other day ago where it was my first time to put on steering rack boots and I wrestled the damn things for 2 hours and I can't charge him 2 hours for... boots... Maybe do what we did with the Spitfire guy, give them the option of your set price or an hourly price and then tell them your honest opinion on what would be cheaper.

[woldson]

Ok, think of this as apprentice work.

Time and experience will be your friend, ie. Yea I built...blah,,,blah.....

 

Wage will increase in time, cut your teeth properly.

 

FIT the part. Esp. in this world now, image is everything, sometimes tooooo much, oh well.

 

If you are one of those computer gurus (nobody knows what your doing, its PFM to the customer) you can afford to "look" eccentric, (no offense anyone) other wise, maybe a hair cut is in order.

 

Once you have established yourself there will more flexibility in image building, in some cases being more exotic can enhance customer count.

 

I mean look at BRAAP and JHONC!! Good gracious!!!))

 

Your 18, intelligent, organized, patience and gaining experienced. But alas, you are 18.

 

At 30 or so you will be strangely surprised how much growth can take place in that amount of time, esp during early to mid/late twenties!

 

You may find you don't care to work on cars as much as you thought you would and maybe like being a supervisor at McDonald!!

 

Ethier way, I would be surprised if you were not successful in life, just don't get some girl pregnent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Not saying that this will cause failure, just WOW talk about a change in lifestyle!) I was married before bringing in my frist into the world, around age 30.

[rsicard]

josh817: Best advise is to follow David Vizard as closely as possible. Build engines to a checklist and measure EVERYTHING twice and write it down on a form along with all the components used. Then dyno tune each engine and document each configuration of the engine. If you change something on the dyno, document same. After building some of the same engines the power numbers will come up and peak.

[cockerstar]

From what I've noticed, people take you a lot more seriously once they have seen what you have built with your own hands. Not sure if your dad's shop has a car of it's own that has been built to be a display of what can be done, but that's what I have seen a lot of tuner shops doing.

 

To gain a reputation of a "killer engine builder", you need to build something that will grab the attention of someone as a "killer engine".

 

See if the roadster guy is a purist and is dead set on keeping his u20. You might be able to talk him into something with a bit more punch and use that as your first real build outside of your stroker. Show him your stroker as an example of what you have done so he doesn't feel like you don't know what you're talking about. If he agrees to it, offer him a ridiculously low labor charge + parts for the final price and be sure to document lots of the build to be able to show others.

[slown280z]

I wish I was in the same boat as you.

I've got a pretty damn solid grasp on the mechanicals, electricals, and control systems of the car, plus I'm pretty good at CAD, but no one to show off to except for local car clubs.

 

I used to pay rent doing small repairs on the side.

 

BTW, the U20 shares a bunch of parts with a forklift motor that is much cheaper...

[rsicard]

I wish I was in the same boat as you.

I've got a pretty damn solid grasp on the mechanicals, electricals, and control systems of the car, plus I'm pretty good at CAD, but no one to show off to except for local car clubs.

 

I used to pay rent doing small repairs on the side.

 

BTW, the U20 shares a bunch of parts with a forklift motor that is much cheaper...

slown280z: Where are you at in Lower Arizona? I noted your mention of CAD. Which CAD program do you use or recommend? Please advise. Thanks.

[josh817]

If you are one of those computer gurus (nobody knows what your doing, its PFM to the customer) you can afford to "look" eccentric, (no offense anyone) other wise, maybe a hair cut is in order.

Yah a lot of the new customers that come by the shop don't know much at all. Dad's customers consist of guys that don't want to do the work but could if they wanted to,guys that have no idea how to do the work so we do it for them, and guys that go to him because they know he is good and affordable and they wouldn't like to venture off into trying to do the work themselves. The owner of the Spitfire wound up breaking 3 things trying to get one part on his car along with getting frustrated. He's helpless when it comes to doing work himself which kind of annoys people at the track so what I do is PFM to him. The Roadster guy doesn't know anything about these cars since he's always paid others to do it for him so when Dad was like "Oh yah he can do a crazy stroker L4 blah blah blah" he believed it. I'm not one of those dudes who likes to talk his customers into expensive **** or say something which is false so when everything is done I want him to drive the car, wow it, and then inform him that the L4 couldn't be done because this car runs a totally different motor but the job was still taken care of. Then again for $3000 doing an SR20 conversion may be possible if you skimp but I think he is wanting to preserve the car. It was the only thing he kept after getting divorced in California apparently so its his baby. I usually like to sit down with the people and show them all the text and products from catalogs, tell them what everything does and show them the prices, they decide for themselves because thats how it should be rather than lying and scaring customers into buying high dollar crap.

 

You may find you don't care to work on cars as much as you thought you would and maybe like being a supervisor at McDonald!!

 

Ethier way, I would be surprised if you were not successful in life, just don't get some girl pregnent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Not saying that this will cause failure, just WOW talk about a change in lifestyle!) I was married before bringing in my first into the world, around age 30.

Yes, thus the reason why I want to do what Dad did and just be the dude who works out of a shop and does good work but isn't a business. This way I can just call it off if my life seems to take a dive bomb. Pregnancy, already went through a scare with that but no one knows and the scare wasn't even something to be scared about. Erratic cycles + her mom knowing exactly when she should be and then asking a week later if she had started yet = scare, family "talk", and then next day later she has her period.

 

Fail.

 

From what I've noticed, people take you a lot more seriously once they have seen what you have built with your own hands. Not sure if your dad's shop has a car of it's own that has been built to be a display of what can be done, but that's what I have seen a lot of tuner shops doing.

Really all of shop cars are Triumphs. He's just known as the Triumph guru after having experience in racing them and blowing up his own motors blah blah blah. He does have a little '39 midget with all the history on it but I think he's trying to sell that. I think once he starts getting that kit car coming into the states he will have a real shop car. He set a side an old block, ported head, and rods that had done a long time ago to build a killer motor for his own kit. He's notorious for boring out those blocks by over 1/4" and sleeving them and then letting everyone race the old motor he did that was supercharged. Most of his customers are his friends so he likes to do the whole "I bet I can build you a motor thats has more power than that car and if its not I'll pay for it." or you know like I bet I can get you better brakes that sort of crap.

 

Show him your stroker as an example of what you have done so he doesn't feel like you don't know what you're talking about. If he agrees to it, offer him a ridiculously low labor charge + parts for the final price and be sure to document lots of the build to be able to show others.

Yes, I document everything and make like a CD album which goes off to customer in the end. I don't like to think I'm giving away business but I prefer to teach the clueless people into doing their own work. I won't give away any "secrets" but I will try to get customers to see how everything works especially if they show interest, this way if they feel bold enough one day to tackle the job themselves they can.

 

I don't really like the business card but it is what it is. Any thoughts?

 

Also another cool idea would be to start up a Z shop somewhere where there isn't any other Z shop around. Right now there is a guy in Arlington already that people really depend on, hell I depend on him for some quarky parts. I'd really hate to be a turd and make competition for him.

 

I guess the plan for now will be just keep on tooling. I'll see if anyone local is on here or classiczcar and maybe they will be interested. I had mentioned my work in some of my posts a while ago and I received some hits by first time posters which never really got serious they just kind of talked like they were interested. Once the Spitfire is race ready and once the Datsun is finished, I'm out of work and technically according to the government, I'm unemployed. I may get a summer job at a golf course because I CANNOT afford to have no income. I'm already wrestling Dad to write me a check for last months work. I don't like how he handles the financial part of my customers. They send him the money and then he takes forever to order the parts and some days I question whats going on. I have already set up an account for myself so in the future I will handle things. I would really like to order parts under my own name and get have the shop discount they give you so you can charge regular catalog prices but make like 5% profit from it or something.

[Flexicoker]

I think its important to not over-promise. its too easy to sometimes say "ya, we can do this and that in a week" when you haven't fully considered everything that goes into it, and then you end up making excuses to costumers as to why their stuff isn't done.

 

My friend Kevin owns Evolution Dynamics, and has earned himself a great reputation tuning Evos in DFW. You might try shooting him an email and see if he has any advice for you (provided you're not going to start building evo engines ) Tell him that Eric, the fastest turbo-250 pilot in the history of mankind sent you...

 

http://www.evodynamics.com/

[attworth]

Hey Josh,

 

You're on the right track, and like everybody else has said, just be patient with things.

 

I started detailing cars professionally about a year and a half ago, and have only done about 10 cars for cash - all of them for way less than I should have charged. It takes me about 10 hours to do a full detail. I've been getting about 100$ for a car, about 150$ for a truck. Do the math. Subtract my product costs (roughly 10-20% of the total price I charge.)

 

Hopefully some day I'll have built a name well enough to charge what it's truly worth - and get it!

[josh817]

Hey Josh,

 

You're on the right track, and like everybody else has said, just be patient with things.

 

I started detailing cars professionally about a year and a half ago, and have only done about 10 cars for cash - all of them for way less than I should have charged. It takes me about 10 hours to do a full detail. I've been getting about 100$ for a car, about 150$ for a truck. Do the math. Subtract my product costs (roughly 10-20% of the total price I charge.)

 

Hopefully some day I'll have built a name well enough to charge what it's truly worth - and get it!

 

want me to build you a motor since you're local?

[dr_hunt]

If your going to be a professional then you should look professional as well, including your hair. Reputation comes not by your mouth but by that of others. Quiet, well mannered, reserved and having your brain in gear while working will get you there. Talking smack with you buddies about what you did and when and who you spanked won't.

 

Remember people that can do and those that can't teach or even perhaps write books. I think for the most part david vizard is great at writing books but he is not the head of Richard Childress engine program. There is alot more than teaching newbies how to build engines and there is alot to learn about building engines and that costs alot of money. You can read it in a book but doing it is very different and being good at it is even harder. I doubt reading a book is going to impress your customers very much or even if they see it on your bookshelf in the office. What does work is pictures of winning race cars with the owner in the picture saying "Thanks for building me great HP"!!

 

These days there is not alot of money floating around that will allow customers to come in and drop a grip load on you and say "git r done" boy. Nope those days are gone for now. Instead I think most will be on a budget which makes it hard to make money. But figure your time is well spent building a reputation rather than resting on it and giving more than you get paid for now will reap rewards down the road.

[attworth]

want me to build you a motor since you're local?

 

While that's appealing, I can't afford the parts to do it myself let alone to pay somebody else to do it. Being fresh out of the chute is not easy.

 

Maybe some day. I need to come see your shop and meet you.

[josh817]

If your going to be a professional then you should look professional as well, including your hair. Reputation comes not by your mouth but by that of others. Quiet, well mannered, reserved and having your brain in gear while working will get you there. Talking smack with you buddies about what you did and when and who you spanked won't.

 

Remember people that can do and those that can't teach or even perhaps write books. I think for the most part david vizard is great at writing books but he is not the head of Richard Childress engine program. There is alot more than teaching newbies how to build engines and there is alot to learn about building engines and that costs alot of money. You can read it in a book but doing it is very different and being good at it is even harder. I doubt reading a book is going to impress your customers very much or even if they see it on your bookshelf in the office. What does work is pictures of winning race cars with the owner in the picture saying "Thanks for building me great HP"!!

 

These days there is not alot of money floating around that will allow customers to come in and drop a grip load on you and say "git r done" boy. Nope those days are gone for now. Instead I think most will be on a budget which makes it hard to make money. But figure your time is well spent building a reputation rather than resting on it and giving more than you get paid for now will reap rewards down the road.

I agree, thats why I'm trying to get a collection of books that aren't necessarily all Datsun. For instance, my physics teacher took several harmonic and fluid motion courses in college so seeing if I could buy his book and then apply that some way with the motors would be nice. I need something thats almost special rather than just building regular motors. Dave Rebello knows something I don't know obviously since he is pushing lots of power through the same displacement and if I were to ask him about his tricks he would probably give me a blank stare. That sort of thing. For $15/hr you won't be getting secret tricks of the trade like his, is all I can say. Yah I plan on learning some crazy stuff that other people don't know but prices still wouldn't change until I would be on my own working with my own tools in my own shop. I think people are misunderstanding what I'm saying because right now I love $15/hr and I have no intensions on charging more if I'm to be honest AND I also think that rate is damn cheap comparitively speaking. Also, when I said long hair I meant like its enough to comb nicely, not like ponytail.

 

As for being quiet an well mannered, absolutely. However, there are some exceptions. When you're doing restorations for people, you work on their have their cars for maybe a year or two at a time, they regularly stop by to see how everything is going and chit chat. Dad is a horrendous talker, you have to pull him away from the people otherwise car talk will last for days. With all that happening, his customers generally become his friends and some are good friends, well good enough to receive a key to the shop so they can come in and do work on their own cars if they really felt like it. This is why on Saturday, you don't plan to get any work done because people stop by all day long, its like a mini car show and they will interupt your work and if you plan a list of things to accomplish you are just asking for frustration. Yes we have car shows and all sorts of stuff going on at the shop every once and a while. Dad does a lot of stuff I'm not even aware of like attending the club meetings, editor of the newsletters, gives lectures about oil and whats the right stuff to use blah blah blah. When he draws the attention of people to atleast stop by and check out the cars thats when its my opportunity when they see a cool little 2000 Roadster with nice centerline wheels and a nice paintjob, after all, most everyone of that generation knows what a Datsun is. Business is booming for Dad but if I want my name I have to get my butt in gear which is why I am here to see what I can do and how I can approach this.

 

The office holds all of our trophies and awards really. I think its important to have your customers winning photos and then your race history if there is one because it really helps the confidence of the customer knowing that you had/still are out on the track doing your thing and you know what racing is all about. Dad has lots of trophies, I have my little awards from kart racing, and we also have all these nifty race posters and autographs and stuff. Some good pictures of us out on whatever track, and then the customer stuff here and there. One important thing to note though is while thats all cool, its not Datsun. I have my Z and that roadster and the owner of the roadster I will probably never hear from after I'm done with his motor unless he needs like a tune up or valve adjust beause all that jive is magic to him.

 

I'll make a video walk through of the shop next time I'm there.

 

And Attworth, when my car is back on the road I'll be stopping by your place, check out any parts you may have, and then we could go to the shop if you want.

[attworth]

And Attworth, when my car is back on the road I'll be stopping by your place, check out any parts you may have, and then we could go to the shop if you want.

 

I desperately need to see a running driving Z up close for fear of going insane.

 

[josh817]

I desperately need to see a running driving Z up close for fear of going insane.

 

You will drive my baby around your neighborhood and see the glory, good sir.

[attworth]

You will drive my baby around your neighborhood and see the glory, good sir.

 

Just don't tell my wife.

[johnc]

Step back a bit and look at your goals. Running a shop and having a great reputation as an engine builder will take 10 to 15 years to develop. The main steps to getting there are:

 

1. Stay in school and get good grades.

2. Keep out of trouble.

3. Stay away from weed. Its not that its bad for you, it just kills motivation and critical thinking.

4. Take all the machining, welding, and automotive classes you can.

5. Join SAE.

6. Get involved in a the Forumla SAE program.

7. Get into a college that offers a good mechanical engineering program.

8. Do your best to get on as an engineer on a professional race team and try to focus on the powertrain.

9. Save all the money you can by living as cheaply as possible.

10. When you reach 30, write a good business plan and open your shop.

11. Work your ass off.

[attworth]

Step back a bit and look at your goals. Running a shop and having a great reputation as an engine builder will take 10 to 15 years to develop. The main steps to getting there are:

 

1. Stay in school and get good grades.

2. Keep out of trouble.

3. Stay away from weed. Its not that its bad for you, it just kills motivation and critical thinking.

4. Take all the machining, welding, and automotive classes you can.

5. Join SAE.

6. Get involved in a the Forumla SAE program.

7. Get into a college that offers a good mechanical engineering program.

8. Do your best to get on as an engineer on a professional race team and try to focus on the powertrain.

9. Save all the money you can by living as cheaply as possible.

10. When you reach 30, write a good business plan and open your shop.

11. Work your ass off.