methanol injection on the inlet of a turbo

[maybemark]

I am planning on putting a methanol injection on my 82 280zx with a hy35 holset turbo. This company that i am purchasing the kit from, suggested besides putting an injector before the throttle body, also put one on the inlet of the turbo. My own thoughts were, that it would crack the turbo. Has anyone ever heard of this?

I would like to hear other people thoughts about this

Thanks

Mark

[GrayZee]

I am not saying its a good idea, but I have done it on a stock L28 turbo with zero side effects to the turbo.

[maybemark]

thanks Grey

[jeffer949]

What company is telling you to do that? Every thing I have read has said that its a bad idea to do that as it can actually wear out the blades after a while. Ive read this on coolingmist's and others

[maybemark]

Jeffer

I'm not sure at this point, I want to mention the company's name, but I do appreciate your feedback

thanks

Mark

[ktm]

Putting it before the turbo inlet negates any cooling benefit you'll see from injecting it after the compressor.

 

Case in point, my IATs are around 12 to 15 degrees C with methanol injection and a little over 40 degrees C without.

[GrayZee]

What company is telling you to do that? Every thing I have read has said that its a bad idea to do that as it can actually wear out the blades after a while. Ive read this on coolingmist's and others

 

Again, I am not saying that it is a "good idea" but it's not a unheard of concept either.. read this article:

http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a40/Where-Do-I-Position-My-Water-Methanol-Injection-Nozzles/article_info.html

[Vindicare]

www.riceracing.com.au

 

They recommend injecting before the compressor, but it has to be a certain size of particle to not damage the turbo. Give him a buzz, he's very clued in on the subject.

[maybemark]

grey

thanks for the article

vindi

thanks for the link

Mark

[Tony D]

Putting it before the turbo inlet negates any cooling benefit you'll see from injecting it after the compressor.

 

Case in point, my IATs are around 12 to 15 degrees C with methanol injection and a little over 40 degrees C without.

 

That's not true. In either injection point, there will be a change of state. The old spearco water injection was totally before the compressor simply because the pumping technology for impingement or atomization style nozzles didn't exist yet cheap enough.

 

The small droplets and higher pressure cause a total state change giving the maximum cooling possible. This will not change injecting it before the turbo, and with the smaller droplets of the newere systems I think 'errosion' of the turbine wheel is a bit of over-egging the pudding if you ask me.

 

I ran my old Corvair for YEARS on water injected from a carburettor jet impinging directly on the wheel with no noticable errosion. The advantage of this is you don't 'need' and expensive pump to pressurize it, a simple windshield washer pump would work. But you really won't control the injection rate very precisely.

 

The new systems allow you to use it as a precision injection of fuel and not simply anti-detonant. You can tailor the flow.

 

I would lay money that on a NON-INTERCOOLED system, before or after the turbo would make no difference.

 

On an INTERCOOLED system, I would move it after the intercooler simply because you want to cool it as close to the intake plenum as you can so it doesn't pick up heat along the way. Putting injection in before the turbo on an intercooled system would have several issues: combustible mixture in great volumes waiting for an ignition source being the first one that comes to mind.

 

On cooler days, there is the possibility of condensing back out of suspension in the airflow as it goes through the intercooler, with water it's easily dispensed with a small weep hole on the bottom of the piping to the T/B, but methanol can ignite, so once it's in the piping, yo uwant it to STAY in the piping!

[maybemark]

Tony

Thanks for your input.

When I was sold the system, I don't remember telling him if I had an intercooler on the car. Well, I do, he suggested before the intake of the turbo, and before the t/b. Maybe i should just do before the t/b.

thanks again

Mark

[Tony D]

That would be where I put it, as long as it's one of the High-Pressure Injection systems, before the T/B is where you want to be.

 

If you didn't have an I/C, it won't make a difference in cooling.

 

If you do, it's slightly better after the I/C as you can see from KTM's example, you are using such a fine atomized mist, that change of state will occur even at much lower temperatures, so you get the possibility of better-than-perfect intercooling (charge temperature below turbo inlet temperature)...

[maybemark]

Tony

I have a high pressure pump, it's a 250psi, I think it's set at 200 psi though. I'll just put a small injector before the t/b and be done with it. If I decide to go with straight methanol, then I have a large injector which I would use instead.

Thanks alot for your input.

Have a happy holiday.

Everyone, have a happy holiday

Mark

[Tony D]

Holiday? You mean Monday the 25th?

It's been here and gone, and I worked it!

 

Other side of the dateline, and not an end to the job in sight!

 

Maybe I'll be back for 4th of July.

 

Who would have thought in 1975, 1950, or 1945 that I would be leaving Japan, flying over Korea, on a flight to China, trying to stall a two week job in VietNam?

 

Talk about the 'Memorial Day Ironies'!

 

I wonder of Hooters in Shanghai will have a BBQ outside for some burnt animal flesh? I think I'm dreamin', but there's no harm in that...

[maybemark]

Tony

Have a happy day

Mark

[ktm]

Tony, my statement is unclear and you are correct, there is a change in state. I should not have said negates but rather diminishes the cooling effect.

[Tony D]

Only on an intercooled car Bo.

In a non-intercooled car, the argument can be made for pre-turbo injection as a more efficient model as change of state at point of compression increases adibiatic efficiency of the compressor, whereas injecting it afterwards only gives you state change, with no resultant increase in compression efficiency.

 

I'm so happy my non-disclosure agreement with Cosworth has expired, I can say this happily, and with a clear concience:

 

If injecting methanol after the turbo wasn't any more efficient, CART teams wouldn't be using Counterflow Methanol Injection into the inlet of the turbines on the CART cars... I'm only parroting the engineers at Cosworth on their explanation to me on why the nozzles were in front of the turbine instead of elsewhere...

 

The cooling effect is one plus. But the compressor efficiency effect is one that goes unnoticed! Most of you guys know that the turbocompressor is a slave to it's thermodynamics. Cool that compression down and those "74%" islands on the map get fatter and fatter... And some other islands may well appear. And when those islands get bigger, that surge line moves left on the graph even further...

[dustin280zx]

I have a water/meth system from AIS (alcohol injection system). The engine is non-intercooled. I have a nozzle before the turbo and a nozzle right after the blowoff valve. The way they explained it to me is that the high psi pump will allow the water/meth to vaporize so you are not actually spraying a "liquid" into the propellers. I have been running it for over a year with no problems of detonation or the turbo (still looks new) and have ran as high as 17 psi on 8.8:1 compression and 93 pump gas. It seems to work very well and the intake tube is still "cool" after a 1/4 mile run. However, if you are running an intercooler you should not put a nozzle before the turbo because it will cause puddling. If you are looking for a system then I highly recommend AIS! Those guys know what their doing from experience and testing. Their customer service is excellent as well, which to me, may be worth a few extra bucks because you can gain knowledge by asking them questions and they KNOW the product they sell and how it works unlike some other companies.

 

Another thing to think of is have you ever seen a propeller that the KNOWN damage was caused from a water/meth system? From the years I've been researching I have yet to see one personally and only heard rumors about it. I'll take testing over rumors.

[maybemark]

Dustin

Thanks for your input, I really do appreciate it.

I think now it's time to mention the company I purchased the meth/water system from. Same as you got it from Dustin, AIS.

I was dealing with Rodney, who he tells me, he's the owner. It was his suggestion that I put a very small #3 nozzel before the inlet of the turbo. He went into great lengths that hundreds of his customers are doing it. He metioned names, I guess are big in the industry, but I'm not farmiliar with them.

I questioned him 3 times, are you sure it's ok, since I forgot, if I told him I have an intercooler. That was his suggestion. I think he got upset with me, cause he wouldn't call me back, until I egged him on with an additional e-mail.

Maybe it's ok to put it before the inlet for these race cars. I just have a street car, that I am trying to make quick, and bring it to the track a few times a year, otherwise, it's just a street car.

I'm scared of his suggestion. I'm afraid, that like you, and Tony, and others say, if you have an intercooler, it will puddle up, if you put it before the intercooler.

Again, I thank everyone for their thoughts about it

Mark

[dustin280zx]

Dustin

Thanks for your input, I really do appreciate it.

I think now it's time to mention the company I purchased the meth/water system from. Same as you got it from Dustin, AIS.

I was dealing with Rodney, who he tells me, he's the owner. It was his suggestion that I put a very small #3 nozzel before the inlet of the turbo. He went into great lengths that hundreds of his customers are doing it. He metioned names, I guess are big in the industry, but I'm not farmiliar with them.

I questioned him 3 times, are you sure it's ok, since I forgot, if I told him I have an intercooler. That was his suggestion. I think he got upset with me, cause he wouldn't call me back, until I egged him on with an additional e-mail.

Maybe it's ok to put it before the inlet for these race cars. I just have a street car, that I am trying to make quick, and bring it to the track a few times a year, otherwise, it's just a street car.

I'm scared of his suggestion. I'm afraid, that like you, and Tony, and others say, if you have an intercooler, it will puddle up, if you put it before the intercooler.

Again, I thank everyone for their thoughts about it

Mark

 

My car is a street car. It's been to the track 3 times since last year. I drive it on the street EVERYTIME I'm home from college for trips of an hour or longer. Many poeple that are non intercooled run a nozzle before the turbo/supercharger inlet and after the blowoff. Its almost a standard thing now.

 

The reason I run two nozzles is because it cools the turbo like Tony D was saying and your not spraying one big stream of water/meth into the carb/throttle body. Its split up between two small nozzles so most of it is vaporized and it doesn't affect your car by having unequal distribution like a single stream would.

 

Listen to Rodney. He knows what he's talking about and this isn't his first trip around the block. The reason AIS has become so popular is because his product works, he has good customer service, and he knows what he is talking about. After I finish my second turbo car I'll be ordering another system from him. The only way I would run an intercooler is if I wanted something to supercool the air which then I would use a water/air intercooler.

 

The reasons I did not get an A/A intercooler is

#1 They get heat soaked

#2 It would be a pain in the ass to plumb

#3 AIS system was cheaper

#4 Poeple were seeing amazing results with the system like the one from AIS (I.E. could run the same boost and timing on 93 with water/meth as you could with c16 and make close(within 8) to the same power)

 

I attached a picture of my setup.