Laminova intercooler concept

[Ineptitude01]

So if I were to take a break from my other 3D projects and 'draw' this up, which design are we looking at being the most reasonable now?

[dan5138]

I like the first drawing myself. A low or mid-mount turbo, with the laminova sweeping up and in to a set of ITBs. You could fit 5+ sets of air to water coolers in there at least.

 

I was also thinking, you could possibly add baffles in between each cooler to force the air to travel over more of the surface. Picture a Venturi in between each set. Would most likely make off boost performance suffer a little, but would increase cooling effiency some.

[mulcibre]

each core slides into a tube with a slot on each side, this forces the air to flow over the entire surface of the core.

 

I have the same sentiments about the fuel, I know fuel pumps move a lot of liquid, but i'm skeptical of it's ability to effectively cool the manifold.

 

There was a guy running around with a AWIC setup on a WRX with a really small radiator, he needed 3+ gallons of reserve coolant to minimize soaking. Makes you wonder what would happen to the gas!

 

For the cryo bar, do you mean evaporating liquid nitrogen in a bar in the manifold? That would be a pretty trick setup for drag. In that category, remember that with an AWIC setup, you can fill the reservoir with ice or some other cold substance (dry ice) to get additional short term cooling.

 

As far as manifold heat soak goes, I'm not sure how much the AWIC performance is hampered by heat from the engine soaking to the cores. If you can keep the coolant temp down, the air would not heat up again appreciably prior to being mixed with the fuel and blown up.

 

thermal insulation would equal a more efficient setup, but how would you construct a composite manifold?

[Ineptitude01]

The composite manifold isn't so outlandish from an 'it would work' standpoint. But finding someone who can either CNC or weld up the manifold is already a chore. Finding someone who can make and shape composite material...

 

Well, basically, I'd say that's unrealistic.

[dan5138]

I' m not sure, would take a while to heat soak 10+ gallons on fuel. And at WoT only a small amount of fuel even gets returned to the tank anyway. I am pretty sure you would burn a 10 gallon tank before heat soaking it, especially if it's an L series with 15+ PSI of boost.

 

Building a manifold out of compsites would be pretty simple. Since it would all be flat surfaces, with a little curve to make it sweep from the turbo into the ITBs. Simple make a top, bottom, and side moulds. One of the sides would have to be removable, and brackets, mounting tabs etc. can be put into the composite as you are adding layers. Once it is all laid up, stick it together with a bit of resin and strips of composite for reinforcement.

 

Trying to make it all one solid piece would just be crazy. I don't remember which composite stands up to heat the best, I am thinking it's Kevlar which is cheaper than CF anyway.

[Ineptitude01]

Interesting. I've never worked with composites, but I could swear that some newer engines are actually using composite manifolds from the factory.

 

I want to say it's the GMC Ecotec series, but I can't remember.

 

My problem with fuel would be that at best, it's going to be a little cooler than ambient temperature. with the air-liquid exchanger, you're doing the same thing the radiator is doing, but without the thermostat. You have to figure that coolant is going to be somewhere within a few degrees of an engine's ideal operating temperature.

 

The goal of a normal cooling system is kind of like Goldilocks. Not too hot, not too cold. Juuuuust right.

 

I figure if you're going to go to the trouble of having something like the laminova core design, and you're going to make a seperate cooling system, why sell yourself short with a fluid that's never going to be much colder than ambient?

 

For that matter, ethylene glycol is a good coolant because it readily absorbs heat, prevents gunk, and doesn't freeze, but you can buy things that transfer heat much more efficiently. I agree, fuel is good at this part, but having a closed loop system based around something with an even higher btu efficiency seems like it would be the best way to work this.

 

You might even say it would be the... cool thing to do. :D

[mulcibre]

haha with the puns already!

 

Yeah, my concern is that 3 gallons of water, with active cooling, is proving insufficient with an undersized exchanger.

 

If the fuel isn't even flowing as much, and has no active cooling whatever, I could see it being problematic as there *will* be soak to some degree, which would not be an issue with a properly thought out water/coolant based system.

 

In this case, performance > simplicity IMO

[mulcibre]

Also, I believe the GM ones are the same material as the new subaru or whoever else, it's a thermoresin

[Matt.McInnes]

 

 

So I guess what I'm wondering is... am I totally nuts, or is there some merit to this idea?

 

I wish I could find evidence of this being done on an inline, non crossflow engine, but so far everything I've seen has been for V engines or boxers.

 

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125681

 

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1259403&page=5

 

What do you guys think? Doable on an L6?

 

Doable

 

Edited November 23, 2010 by Matt.McInnes

[Tony D]

"Think on this though, your factory AC system is just cooling down ambient temp air, and not at nearly the rate a turbo moves it either."

 

Think on this though: Proper Capicitance in a system allows a FAR smaller compressor to be used to handle impulse loadings than otherwise would be necessary.

 

If they can cool the engine with Freon, simply cooling intake air would be a cinch...

[Matt.McInnes]

That much chilled air would require a large pump which the engine would have to drive, that sucks KW more than you will ever get back.

 

However, you could chill down a reserve of water and have it come online with boost. A little like using ice but without having the hassle, but my opinion things start to get over complicated. Chilling the water storage while cruising will use more power but not at a time when you want it going to the wheels.

 

My 2c

[Tony D]

That much chilled air would require a large pump which the engine would have to drive, that sucks KW more than you will ever get back.

 

However, you could chill down a reserve of water and have it come online with boost. A little like using ice but without having the hassle, but my opinion things start to get over complicated. Chilling the water storage while cruising will use more power but not at a time when you want it going to the wheels.

 

My 2c

 

This is incorrect and has bee proven in both concept and functionally.

 

Run just about any turbo car at full boost for 30 seconds and you are at a speed where it is impractical to continue accelerating. The Accumulator only need take peak load for 30....maybe 45 seconds tops. Anything else is easily managable.

 

The larger accumulator the SMALLER the pump you need. This is a fact, and the motive behind governmental mandates in the compressed air industry currently. It's working it's way into chillers now as well since they are the same items.

 

As I said, if they can cool the ENTIRE ENGINE with freon, cooling a piddling air cooler from 260F to 35F is nothing.

 

Water storage adds weight which becomes nothing more than ballast once the ice is converted to liquid. If you are suggesting cooling water with the freon, and then using water to cool the air, that is a two-step process with multiple conversion losses. It is FAR more effective to use a proper accumulator and small pump to handle the impulse loads.

 

A turbo's heat output is not constant, this is not a diesel hauling up a grade. The same rules of system recovery (that the pumping of the freon occurs during times when you are NOT at WOT and 'needing' all power) still apply.

 

This was proven to work at Cal State Dominguez Hills in an Automotive Technical Program Project in the mid-late 70's. The horsepower added from more than perfect intercooling during times of boost was more than the parastitic losses of the pump running. Yes, the pump ran when not on boost and you lost power there, but the power differential from cooling intake charge to a consistent 35F was building power on a much greater scale than conventional intercooling of the same engine system.

[Tony D]

Just as a guideline, talking about 'a compressor too big'... for a cooling effect of 1000cfm of air to 35F will need around a 7kw refrigerant compressor. That size compressor will continually cool 1000cfm of air to 35F 24/7/365 and be in CYCLING service meaning the compressor will not run continuously to achieve that level of cooling.

 

So, what will the performance increase be of cooling the intake air under boost from 9 degrees above ambient (general ballpark for standard Air-Air I/C's) to a consistent 35F.

 

Depends on what your ambient temperature is, I guess huh? At 110F intake manifold temperature (around 40C) I can see 2C generating some good power numbers. Will it be 7KW? Does it need to be? If the pump is shut off during boost (like most A/C systems are) then thermal-mass of the cooling block can take out the heat so it's not pumping when power is needed. On a larger engine, this would be easily accomplished with that kind of density change.

 

On a 3 liter it's close and yes, it works. Makes tuning the car under boost a lot more consistent on the dyno as wel... but some things remain sealed in the vault. Sorry.

[Matt.McInnes]

I agrees that you can pump to a accumulator and store 30-45 sec for of the lights starts but you can't use this for circuit racing or continuos on and off boost applications. It's horses for courses.

[Tony D]

Was that a criterion of the design? And yes it would work on-off boost conditions such as track usage, it's all a matter od engineering for the conditions present. There will be recovery time on most any track, but then again I thought this was for a street car?