Need some good body work advice.

[Guest Anonymous]

I've got a nice rust-free AZ 76 280z. I brought it to Missouri,so the rust won't stay off for long. The repaint is starting to peel, too. Anyway, I want to strip it completely down and smooth out the dings in hte body, and repaint it. What steps do I need to take to get there? I want to end up with a nice paint job, and will probably pay someone else to do that part for me, but I will likely end up doing all of the stripping myself.

Specific things I'm not sure about are:

Will a chemical stripper work for most of the car?

Should I sandblast parts that have slight rust on them? (I'm sure there is a little hiding somewhere)

Once it's down to bare metal do I need to treat the metal with something immediately so that it doesn't start rusting while I'm working on it?

Should I use a particular type of filler on dents/dings/body seams?

Do I need to treat the metal before using filler on top of it?

Should I primer the metal when I'm done stripping and straightening?

Is there a particular type of primer that is preferred?

 

Thanks

[DennisK]

I, too, am waiting for someone with the answers here!

[Guest Anonymous]

Dewzenol,

 

It sounds like you are about to do the samething DennisK and I are doing. A buddy of mine who used to work at a custom body shop advised me to use epoxy primer after I have the car stripped. He told me to leave the body surfaces alone as he will take care of doing that part - he is also doing all of the body work/painting for me with the understanding that I re-seed his front yard this fall.

 

I am going to repair the battery box and weld in the subframe connectors before sandblasting the engine bay, wheel wells, interior and underside of the car. I have also read some good things about a product called Por 15 that is supposed to stop/prevent rust and is super tough. Mike Kelly has some of this on his car and says it is all that is advertised. I may coat the underside of the car with the Por 15 once I get to that point. I hear you can spray this stuff on but it works equally as well if it is brushed on, I have read on the web that it comes in a one gallon paint can and you have to put plastic wrap between the lid and can after opening or you will NOT get the lid off again - sounds like pretty tough stuff to me!!

 

Chris

[pparaska]

POR-15 and Hirsch Auto's Miracle Paint are awesome. They are about the same, but Miracle Paint is more UV resistant. For the underside it doesn't matter.

 

These are both moisture cured Polyurethane paints. Very tough and it will pull moisture out of rusty metal and coat it well. On clean metal, rough it up a bit. Get lots of painting gloves. Once this stuff gets on your hands and cures, it really stays for days. Testiment to how tough it is.

 

IF I were to do the underside of my car again, I'd do it with one of these. The stuff is expensive though. And the shelf life is very short, like 6 months.

 

Instead of trying to get the lid off, Hirsch says to jut puncture the lid at the edge in two opposite places and pour out of that. Then seal with duct tape over the holes immediately after pouring. It will harden over on the top surface of the paint in a few months, so you'll have to break through that later on also!

 

I paint all the little parts I make or put on my car now with it. I have black and silver.

 

I'd say it's equal to or better than powdercoating, as far as toughness. I've had both chip with the usual knock from the handle of the ratchet. The paint is alot easier to put on! (I don't have a powder coating system, but want one!) Of course, touching the paint up is easy and matches well.

 

Brushing it one works well, as it levels well, and I don't ever get brush marks.

I find that the Miracle Paint is fairly thin.

 

YMMV, but I like it.

[Guest Anonymous]

Pete,

 

Thanks for the info on the Por 15 and Miracle Paint!

 

I want to black out all of the chrome/stainless trim around the windows, door handles, etc...I was considering having it all powder coated. Do you think the Por 15 or Miracle Paint would work for this?

 

Thanks,

Chris

[pparaska]

I would think powder coating would be a better option for the window trim, since it gets alot of UV. Of course, I'm not sure the powder coating material is very resistant to UV either. I guess both could be waxed with a UV protectant of some sort.

 

I think getting a nice looking finish would be easy with the powder coating. Maybe if the Miracle Paint (better UV resistance, they say) was sprayed with several coats that would be o.k. too. The straight black is high gloss - I wouldn't want that on those parts, I'd want a semi-gloss black, like you can get in powder coat.

 

Hirsch automotive has a black chassis paint that is semi-gloss, and they say it is tough, but I can't tell if it is as good as the Miracle Paint. Maybe POR-15 has a product that is semi-gloss?

 

BTW, Hirsch Auto's catalog is at:

http://hirschauto.com/prod01.htm

[pparaska]

...especially if you have a heat gun. I bet the amount ot time is the same, after you figure cleaning up the chemicals and making sure it's out of all the seams (which is next to impossible, IMO). Stripper is great if you can assure it won't get trapped somewhere. Otherwise, I stay away.

 

Once you have a heat gun/scrapper going, with the car turned on it's side on a rotisserie, I'd be 4-6 hours and you'd be done, if not quicker. The clean up with the mineral spirits is fairly quick also.

 

Have the Por-15/Miracle paint ready after that so it doesn't flash rust. There is a slight e-coat or galvanizing of the metal, but it may be gone in some areas if water got near it for long. Then fix the rust and go back over the new metal with the Por-15/Miracle paint.

 

Have fun..

Pete

[Drax240z]

One other thought on stripping chemicals. I believe you can buy this stuff over the counter as electrical contact cleaner and so on... Try using some perchloroethylene (PCE) based cleaner. I can't guarentee it will work, but I know that it does attack latex, plastics, and almost all rubber. (Viton can endure it however) Likely it would have to be left on for a bit though, before scraping.

 

Warning: It is a hazerdous material, and is a carcinagen. Furthurmore, when reacted with water it will form hydrochloric acid.

 

PCE is most commonly used as a drycleaning medium (yup, for clothing) but its really a wonderful cleaner for other things too!

 

 

 

------------------

Drax240z

1973 240z - L28TURBO transplant on the way!

http://members.xoom.com/r_lewis/datsun.html

[Owen]

I snagged this from zcar.

Black door handles and window trim huh? We shoulda traded cars a long time ago, the previous owner did this and I went and stripped it all off.

Started out using Aircraft Remover, a spray can, but that got expensive so I used Jasco, or other paint stripping chemicals found at

HomeDepot. Don't forget to wipe the car down with water or get it blasted before painting it. Otherwise the reisdue from the paint stripper will jack up your new paint from the backside.

Owen

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Great stripper for removing undercoat!!

Author: Alex (---.compliant.halofax.com)

Date: Jul 5, 10:10am

 

Hey, for all who want to strip the old undercoating from their Z cars, there is a great product from Arrow-Magnolia called "Seal-Strip" which will definitely remove the rubberized undercoating quickly and easily. The alternative is a heat gun and days of scrapping the goey mess by hand. Even then, you won't get the junk out of the nooks and crevises.

 

Seal-Strip is designed "specifically for the removal of organic seal coatings." In other words, it works great for stripping off tarry stuff on metal. It also quickly strips floor paints, pigmented coatings, shellac, varnish, and is reported to dissolve rubber surgical gloves and even plastic cups!

 

I first learned about the product via the Texas Z Car Club's "How to restore you Z car" manual that they put together. I got a copy via "All Z Car Specialists" near Dallas, TX. The author said that nothing he tried worked. He tried dozens of chemicals from chemical companies and every stripper he could find. Nothing worked. When he got hold of seal-strip (after he'd stripped 95% of the underside already. Doohhh!), it bubbled up the undercoating in less than 2 minutes!!!! Easy!

 

I've tracked down the company and they sell mostly to the aircraft industry, but they DO sell to individuals. The price isn't cheap (~$36/gallon), but is well worth it if you are going to strip the underside of your car. The smallest "lot" they sell is 7 gallons, so maybe guys and gals could pool together to buy it.

 

Arrow-Magnolia International, 2646 Rodney Lane, PO Box 59089, Dallas, Tx 75229

(972) 247-7111, or 1-800-527-2101. Ask for Nate Amster, ext. 254 and tell him Alex sent ya!

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http://www.homestead.com/s30z/index.html

[Guest Anonymous]

Pete,

 

I think I may stay with the powdercoating for the trim as you suggested. My dad knows a fella down in Richmond who has a powdercoating operation and said that he will be more than happy to do these small parts.

 

Owen,

 

I called Arrow-Magnolia and they will sell the Seal Strip in cases of 4 gallons for $33.95/gallon.

 

I was unable to speak with Nate but did speak with one of their other sales reps and told him of my project. He said that it would definately work but said that one must use great caution in using the product. He said that it is a VERY, VERY caustic solution and will burn skin immediately upon contact.

 

I would really like to try some but I am not to the point of being prepared to buy four gallons. Maybe after scraping some more this evening I will be...

 

Thanks,

Chris

 

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited July 05, 2000).]

[AK-Z]

If you want a almost show car quality I would disassemble the whole car and have it not sandblasted but soda blasted (soda blasting is where they use course baking soda to blast it), its like about $20-$30 per a 20lbs bag of the stuff it will take off the paint and rust and isn't harsh to the metal like the sand media is. I would also see if acid dipping is an option as well.

[Guest rick458]

hotrodders.com go to the Body-Exterior section

Barry K of Southern Polyurethanes posts there

I am using his epoxy primer on my chevy and Z

 

a good knowledge base over there

[Nismo280zEd]

Ok I think you guys went wayyy off on a tangent here... to answer the original questions.

 

I Live in Houston where the humidity pretty dang high. Bare metal will start to surface rust in a day without even any rain.

 

As for stripers, I highly recomend the Por-15 stripper.. I used it along time ago in my engine compartment, however it is extremly caustic and will even eat through your gloves. Beware. If that's a little to expensive I went down to Lowes and got a stripper they had there.. kinda like blue guey stuff.. not nearly as toxic, but it doen'st melt your gloves either.

 

For anything else on my car.. I used a sand blaster to get the paint off. Once the paint is off yes you need to treat it to keep it from rusting. Ideally you would want to strip the body, work the dents while it's in metal (NO BONDO HERE) using lead and slide hammers and dollies etc. to work the metal. Then spray the whole car down with an epoxy based sealer/primer. Just make sure it is epoxy based, that will seal the car and protect it from water. Then once that is cured, you go and lay down your body fillers and sand them out, lay down some high build primer, sand that and then you start to spray your color and clear.

 

As far as primers go.. RacerX turned me onto a great paint called "Zero Rust" similar to por-15 but you can use it as a topcoating, UV doesn't affect it's protection properties. I've used Por-15 before and it's a pain the *** personally, and very expensive. Their products do work well but I would keep it to under car application or suspension pieces etc.. Also I would recomend using the clear por-15 if you do ever try it. I am paranoid about rust and with the clear you can see if it's working of not. I should mention Por-15 should not be used as a general primer for the car, it's used to seal metal. Even with their tie coat primer they sell that allows you to topcoat it... I've had issues with it.

 

I use only PPG products now, they all work well together, and support is very easy to obatin if you need any.

 

I must stress... DO NOT PUT BODY FILLER ON BARE METAL.

Just take my word on that.

 

RacerX has more paint knowledge than I do. I would highly recomend you talk to him for specific questions.

 

Good Luck!

-Ed

[Jolane]

Nismo,

Why not put body filler on bare metal? What kind of body filler are you talking about, Bondo or Metal filled Epoxy? I have also heard not to put BONDO on, but that it is better to put the epoxy kind on before epoxy sealer.

Just curious,

Joshua

[Nismo280zEd]

Well I don't use metal filler, I do my own metal work, welding grinding, smoothing etc. Do not put bondo or any non waterproof body filler on bare metal, it will soak up moisture through the metal and you will end up with a big huge mess. I would strongly advise to spay with epoxy sealer first. Then you can use a waterproof boat filler from evercoat or such products.

 

But hey.. it's your car.

 

-Ed

[Jolane]

Ed,

That is consistent with what I have read. I came across a test where someone applied metal filler before and after epoxy sealer, and tested the adhesion. The filler was the waterproof variety. In short, applying the filler to the metal was stronger becuase the epoxy sealer was failing (shearing in thickness).

I know that this is a highly debated topic on body work forums, and people do it both ways. Doesn't really seem to matter. It seems to depend much more on the environment and time it takes to complete the job.

Joshua

[Nismo280zEd]

if you have a garage you can get away with on metal, but if your doing this outside.. then spray epoxy first. Also.. you shouldn't be using that much filler that it can shear from the metal.

 

-Ed

[Guest tony78_280z]

IF I were to do the underside of my car again, I'd do it with one of these. The stuff is expensive though. And the shelf life is very short, like 6 months.

Don't say that. I bought some POR15 over a year ago and intend to get to some body work after I get the car running good. It hasn't been opened so you think it is still good? Or am I gonna need to buy some more?

[Sparks280zt]

if you didnt open it, you should be safe. Once its opened its hard to get the can to seal well.

[Jolane]

Ed,

I am indeed in a garage, and never take the car outside in iffy weather. Low hummidity here also.

You mean I can't glob on 1" thick of filler? Now I am going to have to beat the panels a little closer to the actual shape. J/K.

Actually, the test I saw had only a thin layer of bondo on each test panel. The point of the test was to test the actual adhesion of the bondo to the panel. In both cases, it separated near the metal. This seems to mean that it shouldn't really matter what thickness the bondo was, just that the epoxy was weaker and sheared instead of the bondo.

I am not a body work guy, I have only read and researched a ton. This is definitely a topic that has two viewpoints. I chose the bare metal route considering my workspace conditions. I would rather have a temp spray booth only set up for a week or two, instead of setting it up to spray the sealer, then working for half a year, then resetting it up.

Joshua