hoov100 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 doesn't the oil pump gear completely cover that portion of the crank though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted February 16, 2010 Administrators Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) I think I may be lost and not understanding. This pic is of a VG33E crank top and a VG30E crank bottom, I understand the VG30DE crank you are trying to install has larger “diameter’s like the VG33E?.... Any how, Area 1 is the crank main bearing journal. Area 2 is the oil pump drive. Area 3 is the front main seal. Area 4 is the timing belt and dampener snout. Area 5 is the overall “length” of these areas. I understand the overall length, dimension #5 in the pic below is the same for both the VG33E crank and VG30DE, and according to 260DET, #2, is longer, (or is it #3 that is longer?) which if the cranks are the same overall length, then that makes #4 shorter, (or #3 could be shorter if #2 is the longer register) My initial thought would be to shorten the area that is longer making all the registers the same length, i.e. shorten the long one by “facing” the offending register on a lathe, #2 or #3, which ever it is. Now keep in mind that the length of the timing gear, (width for the belt to ride on), and damper hub may be different as well. Wish I had both cranks in hand along with VG33E block, the different oil pumps, timing gears and cranks dampeners… Courtesy of http://nissannut.com/maintenance/vg33e_upgrade/ Edited February 16, 2010 by BRAAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted February 16, 2010 Administrators Share Posted February 16, 2010 If machining the crank is an option, be sure the shop that performs this mod facing the register, also re-establishes a generous radius, even if an undercut radius as used on the main/rod journals, and the quality/cleanliness/smoothness of that radius is kept . If a sharp edge is left behind the crank could easily break between the timing gear and oil pump, like this guys VG30E, busted crank snout. http://forums.maxima.org/7149742-post35.html Courtesy of http://nissannut.com/maintenance/vg33e_upgrade/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 The thing is though, what if the oil pump is covering all of that? then the machining would be pointless. has anyone laid the de's and 33's crank sprocket next to eachother? something tells me they use two different width belts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted February 17, 2010 Administrators Share Posted February 17, 2010 (edited) Your question is where my confusion starts. The oil pump resides on register #2. So if the forward face of #2, (the face that separates region #2 and #3), then should have no relevance to the oil pump, i.e. the pump is “behind” that region of concern? Or am I missing something here? Some one grab there crank, oil pump, timing gear and mock those components and take picture showing the this 7mm discrepancy? Edited February 17, 2010 by BRAAP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 17, 2010 Author Share Posted February 17, 2010 Pics of the fronts of a VG30DETT crank and a VG330E crank, they were lined up together so that they can be visually compared. In the first pic the DETT crank is on the left, note the spacing between the actual oil pump drive and the main bearing. In this second pic the DETT crank is on the right. See how the two wodruff key slots are located almost in the same places. So it looks like it would not be a good proposition to machine back the oil pump drive part of the DETT crank 7mm to use a single cam engine's oil pump. Anyway its up to others to decide what they want to do, the pics tell the story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted February 17, 2010 Administrators Share Posted February 17, 2010 The thing is though, what if the oil pump is covering all of that? then the machining would be pointless.... Hoov, Richard's pics help clarify what you were saying, you are absolutely correct, my apologies for not understanding originally. ...So it looks like it would not be a good proposition to machine back the oil pump drive part of the DETT crank 7mm to use a single cam engine's oil pump. Anyway its up to others to decide what they want to do, the pics tell the story. I agree, the machining down of the crank may not be the ideal route. In seeing where this length has been added, it could be done and I personally wouldn't be afraid to have it done if it were my crank by a dedicated crankshaft re-man shop though you would have to use the VG33E pump to allow the the gear and belt to clear without having shim/space out the tensioner, cam pulleys. etc. (can't remember which pump was the undesirable pump...) That is if you can get the VG33E crank gear to fit to be compatible with the rest of the VG33E timing components. Wonder what that might cost? Any updates on the spacers/shim option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm planning to do this very crank swap on a VG34 turbo motor I'm building. I will re-machine the DE crank snout, it's not that big of a deal. Two or three hours max. I've lined up and looked at all the components as you guys have and the only issue I see is my DE crank has an undercut groove that may fall where the crank seal runs. I have to look at it again and measure it. If this is an issue I'll reduce that diameter a bit and press a 4140HT sleeve over it for a smooth, un-interrupted seal surface. I'm going to use the VG33 oil pump and cam drive stuff. Is there a reason you wanted to use the DE oil pump? In addition to the previously mentioned issues it makes the oil pickup tube a really difficult piece to build unless you're using a Z32 oil pan or building one completely from scratch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 I'm planning to do this very crank swap on a VG34 turbo motor I'm building. I will re-machine the DE crank snout, it's not that big of a deal. Two or three hours max. I've lined up and looked at all the components as you guys have and the only issue I see is my DE crank has an undercut groove that may fall where the crank seal runs. I have to look at it again and measure it. If this is an issue I'll reduce that diameter a bit and press a 4140HT sleeve over it for a smooth, un-interrupted seal surface. I'm going to use the VG33 oil pump and cam drive stuff. Is there a reason you wanted to use the DE oil pump? In addition to the previously mentioned issues it makes the oil pickup tube a really difficult piece to build unless you're using a Z32 oil pan or building one completely from scratch! The size is an issue with the stock 33's oil pump. Most people who do a vg33 swap, put in a z31 crank and oil pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pdfflyer Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 There was a guy using a Z32 Crankshaft in a Z31 motor about 5 years ago. His name in Danny Muir and you are going to have to search for him on the Z31 boards, Z31.com, RedZ31.com, going back 5 years or so. He lived in eastern southern US, maybe FL, SC, or Georgia, and has built around 6 - 7 performance Z cars using modified parts and high perf turbos. Tell him I recommended his expertise on Z32 cranks usage. Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 The size is an issue with the stock 33's oil pump. Most people who do a vg33 swap, put in a z31 crank and oil pump. The external size of the pump? I've always hated that oil filter mount that pokes out sideways! I wonder if the internals of the VG33 pump will fit in the VG30E pump housing? I'll report back.... *goes to shop to take apart oil pumps* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Nope, that won't work! VG30E and DE are gear pumps while VG33 is a gerotor type. DE gears are huge, BTW! I think what I'll do for mine is machine a little housing that bolts onto the VG33 oil pump where the filter mount is supposed to go that sends the oil straight back into the motor and then use the filter location above the starter. Alternatively a remote filter could be plumbed directly to the oil pump. Does somebody make an adapter for this already? There's a whole lot of extra material on the VG33 oil pump as it's got the 4wd style 'rock guard' timing cover setup. Are they all this way? If there's a 'car' version of the VG33 pump that would sure be a nice piece to have! If there isn't I'll just mill all that extra crap off as I'll be running it in a street 510 with no timing covers anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Nope, that won't work! VG30E and DE are gear pumps while VG33 is a gerotor type. DE gears are huge, BTW! I think what I'll do for mine is machine a little housing that bolts onto the VG33 oil pump where the filter mount is supposed to go that sends the oil straight back into the motor and then use the filter location above the starter. Alternatively a remote filter could be plumbed directly to the oil pump. Does somebody make an adapter for this already? There's a whole lot of extra material on the VG33 oil pump as it's got the 4wd style 'rock guard' timing cover setup. Are they all this way? If there's a 'car' version of the VG33 pump that would sure be a nice piece to have! If there isn't I'll just mill all that extra crap off as I'll be running it in a street 510 with no timing covers anyway. Why go through all that work, when the e's oil pump and crank will bolt right in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.510 Posted February 18, 2010 Share Posted February 18, 2010 Why go through all that work, when the e's oil pump and crank will bolt right in. Because I need the DE's forged crank. Sly says I'll break 'E' cranks with what I'm doing and he knows more about VG34s than I probably ever will... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 18, 2010 Author Share Posted February 18, 2010 Look closely at those two pics of mine before deciding on any machining. With the DE/TT crank there is a space between the pump drive part of the crank and the main bearing part. In other words, with the DE/TT the pump drive part of the crank is not flush against the main bearing part of the crank, like the single cam's drive is. There are also those undercuts machined in where the diameters step down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 28, 2010 Author Share Posted February 28, 2010 While I think of it, a Z32 coolant pump bolts straight up to the 33 block, coolant passages align too. But the nose of the Z32 pump does not stick out as far forward as the 33 one's does, maybe the pulleys are dished differently or something. This of course is relevant to aligning the fan belt drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted February 28, 2010 Share Posted February 28, 2010 While I think of it, a Z32 coolant pump bolts straight up to the 33 block, coolant passages align too. But the nose of the Z32 pump does not stick out as far forward as the 33 one's does, maybe the pulleys are dished differently or something. This of course is relevant to aligning the fan belt drive. does the z32 water pump flow more? I was looking at the one off my z32, next to a z31's and besides the length difference, they look the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted February 28, 2010 Author Share Posted February 28, 2010 Yeh flow wise they look the same. The 33 one is a big expensive lump of a thing, plus the difference in lengths gives another option for pulley alignment if needed. Put it this way, I'll be using the Z32 one if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtcookson Posted March 9, 2010 Share Posted March 9, 2010 I've actually been kind of working on this in my mind for quite a while since I'm putting VG-E in a Z32. You guys have it pretty well covered. With the DE(TT) crank and pump you'll have to extend the cam gear and tensioner and of course add the two extra holes in the block for the pump. You'll also need another spacer for the crank timing belt gear as the VG33's (and 30) belt/gears are thinner than the DE(TT). Basically it would be the metal plate, the gear, the second metal plate, a spacer, then the crank pulley. The Z32 alternator and a/c brackets will bolt up to the VG30/33 block... which is awesome as it moves the a/c to the very bottom of the block meaning more options for turbo pipe plumbing. The water pump also bolts right up. The only thing I haven't worked on yet is the p/s pump bracket. They mount to the head which means you'll likely have to go custom there due to the head differences. Some day I might be able to work on it again and find out lol. You will need a DE(TT) oil pan to do this as well due to the longer oil pump, the oil pan is slightly longer. I'm sure you guys have all this covered but figured I'd throw in everything I've put together so far. If I think of anything else I'll let you guys know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260DET Posted March 10, 2010 Author Share Posted March 10, 2010 Aaaah MTC, you were around a few years ago when I was asking questions on this subject I'll be using a VG30DETT sump pan and oil pump pickup on my 33. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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