The start to something awesome #2

[yetterben]

Well i took the red wire from dizzy to ign in on ms and the green to ground, brown from ms to - on coil. flipped jumper from 1-2 to 2-3 for vr. set d15 to irq trigger. Got nothing on the rpm signal. Giving up for the night.

[Tony D]

well i have the complete ignition setup from the 81. Trying to find info to hook it up via ms, but not finding anything just 82-83.

 

*edit* Finding some stuff for 81 but not much. Still have not found wiring for the sensor.

 

This is total B.S.

 

My cardomain page details modifications for the 81CAS so you can get well over max advance needed for any application.

 

The Moby Sticky contains my comments on CAS interchangability, as likely will any search on CAS. Search the Tool Shed, likely it's been asked enough that several repeats have been flushed...

 

The CAS is the CAS, the waveform is IDENTICAL. They are INTERCHANGABLE. The wires are THE SAME.

[yetterben]

Well at 12psi my head gasket let go. it was fine at 10 all day turned it up to 12 and made it half way threw 3rd and it let go on cyl 5. Timing was 23 at 12psi. So i am left with what decent HG to get. I was using the ishino. Is the msa gasket good?

[yetterben]

After popping off the head damage is as follows. 5 blown i was aware of that. On 2 the paper is blown but not the fire ring. 1 is looking kinda oblong not much but a little. Scratching my head a little over this. I know it detonated but why. timing was pretty conservative and if i take any more out turbo and mani glow. Fuel was fine low 11's the whole way always has been.

 

I can tell i am getting a lot older i guess i did not even swear when it happened nor am i pissed or upset that i had to take it apart. Something about the Z makes it okay....does that make sense. Bonding with the akuma.

 

 

 

 

 

Anyway in other news i installed a rear set of mud flaps from Altec in Ham lake Minnesota. I guess these can be had via msa but why bother they mark **** up crazy high. I like them they look good and will save my paint from stones. I thought about putting stone guard film on the car but my life in a detailing shop for 3 years tells me no way. Rock film always removes paint on removal and that's just not cool. Hell when i first started at ford before i was a tech i used to install stone film all over new cars, hoods fenders etc.....bad stuff.

 

 

Still looking for a reasonable priced set of fender mirrors. I really wanna paint all the door chrome over to black like oddmanouts ride.

 

Once the head is back on i will hook up my meth again and start to run with that. When i had the carbs i was able to run 87 octane and run a full N/A advance curve.

Edited June 20, 2010 by yetterben

[cygnusx1]

 If you are truly running 11:1 AFR's and your ign timing was dead nuts at 23@12psi, you should not have detonated with a turbo piston motor, and P90 unshaved head.  

 

Unless:

 

1)An injector leaned out.

 

2)Timing jumped around.

 

3)You had a hot spot in the combustion chamber (sharp edge)

 

4)You have an internal head cooling issue.

 

5)bad gas

 

6) lol Cam timing. Dynamic Compression Ratio????

 

 

OR

 

Your head was not torqued to the proper specs and the gasket "slipped".  You told me you used assembly lube on the head studs.  I am not sure if that is the right way to go.  Moly grease should be used, which will give you accurate stud tension to nut-torque ratios.

Edited June 20, 2010 by cygnusx1

[yetterben]

Okay another point of interest here. when i first set up the timing i was off buy half a link. I was to brain dead to figure out to just move the cam a little to get my half link back. So i took the front cover off and re did the whole timing event. Rotated the engine 2-3 times buy hand to make sure. So when i took it off today i turned the engine a bunch of times and the only time the bright link was near the number 1 spot on cam sprocket it was clockwise one link.

 

DAve mentioned this could bring the compression ration up.

 

 

But how the fawk did i jump a link.

[cygnusx1]

OK you used my timing and VE maps to run your motor.

 

 

 

 

Ben:

Turbo@12psi

 

 

F54 dished pistons

P79 Head and P79 N/A Cam with possible cam retarded by one tooth.

440cc supra injectors

 

 

 

 

 

Me:

Turbo@16psi

 

 

F54 dished pistons

P90 head and turbo cam

440cc ford-bosch injectors

 

 

 

 

 

That could explain why you blew the gasket at 12psi....NA Cam and high EGT's due to retarded cam timing.

Edited June 20, 2010 by cygnusx1

[yetterben]

Here is a picture. the motor is a little past tdc here. I had that bright link on the number 1 spot. i turned the motor over a bunch of times like 4-6 times. This is the only spot where that link came close to number 1. i spun it around enough times to see this link pass this number twice. Buy my thinking that link should be on the number 1 spot all the way till the chain goes back down.

It either jumped or i screwed the pooch the second time trying to fix it. But it was dead on before the groove was a little past the notch on the cam tower etc.

 

I am hoping this was my issue.

Hell when the motor was on the stand and it was a half notch off i buzzed Tony he said move the cam yah tard to get my half link back. So i did spun it over and things where fine. Until i see this.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2010 by yetterben

[yetterben]

Waiting and hoping some one can chime in here with some top notch cam degree info. Looking to find out what running retarded or advanced might do to the engine in terms of egts and behavior.

 

I know retarding the cam will bring in more power up top and rob a little from down low. But will this Cause major issues on a boosted engine. I am wondering if it being retarded caused detonation issues.

Edited June 20, 2010 by yetterben

[Tony D]

Use of moly lube on stock head bolts will likely result in overtorquing of the OEM parts.

The specification calls in the FSM for motor oil, and moly will result in significantly lower turning friction. On engineered fasteners, this can actually lead to fastener failure as the excess torque puts the fastener into plastic deformation, instead of elastic.

 

There really isn't a 'one product fits all' application assembly lube. People use them as such, but it's not right.

[cygnusx1]

Use of moly lube on stock head bolts will likely result in overtorquing of the OEM parts.

The specification calls in the FSM for motor oil, and moly will result in significantly lower turning friction. On engineered fasteners, this can actually lead to fastener failure as the excess torque puts the fastener into plastic deformation, instead of elastic.

 

There really isn't a 'one product fits all' application assembly lube. People use them as such, but it's not right.

 

 

 

 

Yeah I used moly lube on my ARP fasteners and Mobile 1 on the stockers.  What about "break-in oil", which is what Ben used on his stock fasteners?  How does that compare to motor oil for achieving proper bolt stretch. I'm not familiar with the properties of the BIO?

 

 

 

 

Here is the thing.  We are trying to figure out why the head gasket blew at only 12psi.  Ben claims a steady 11:1 AFR and a timing curve less aggressive than mine.  The static CR of the motors are the same stock L28ET.  I did not know that Ben's cam timing could be off, and that he was using an N/A cam and a P79 head.  Obviously this throws up a red flag.  Besides obvious failures of an injector, hot spots, bad gas, warped head....why would the gasket fail like it did at 12psi.  I know that no two engines are alike, so maybe his motor just can't take the heat like mine does.  I can't imagine the L28ET being able to accept only 12psi with a proper AFR and advance curve.  Something HAS to be wrong somewhere.  Right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[yetterben]

Going to remove the header wrap as well. Reason being outside of the headers and turbo and down pipe glowing like they just came out of a forge, the car ran good with timing at 18-20degrees. Gonna try to pull some fuel after peak torque first though per Tony's statement. I believe the wrap is just holding in the excess heat after hard runs. Its made to trap in heat i just dont like glowing **** under my hood. When it would glow it would stay fire red for 5-10 minutes after car shut down.

 

I never had this timing, detonation, glowing issue with the carbs. That sucker ran pig rich and made but loads of power when conditions where right. Even before methanol. I dont wanna come near walking the line with timing i would rather make more power with boost than more power walking the line with timing. Basically if i have to make the same power at 15psi as i could at 10 with advanced timing etc..

[cygnusx1]

 Absolutely, timing in the low load areas can be pushed to increase driveability and throttle response but better to trade timing for boost.  I still don't understand why your motor only took 12psi with a de-tuned version of my timing curve though.  Here is a theory.  Your N/A cam and retarded cam timing significantly shifted peak torque into a zone where my maps are geared for low load driving.  So here you go driving at peak torque in the lean cruise areas of my maps.... and boom. 

Edited June 21, 2010 by cygnusx1

[yetterben]

again afr's where the 11's Confirmed chain was not off.

[Tony D]

What octane gas is everybody using?

When was the last calibration of the torque wrench used?

Was there a retorque after initial start?

What is the surface finish of the head and block (too smooth machining, and you can slip easier than properly finished pieces...)

Are the MSQ files IDENTICAL including all REQ FUEL / Injector Sizing / Fuel Pressure? If not/why not?

What fuel pump is being used? Could it be internally bypassing hurting flow or pressure?

 

"Break In Oil" is simply a non-detergent so any micro bits of metal fall out of suspension in the pan and do not get suspended in the oil stream by the detergent package. It is identical to normal detergent motor oil, other than that. And now possibly they are putting in high-zinc additives since regular oil no longer contains them.

[Tony D]

Anybody's table is a STARTING POINT ONLY.

 

Each bin must be checked and compared.

 

There is a site on TurboMopars that describes using a VW Knock Sensor bolted to the block, and routed to a simple amplifier circuit and headphones to detect detonation. Apparently the characteristics of the VW sensor make it act like a Peizoelectric Microphone and you can actually hear it over a regular speaker because of the way it works. The guys there using it love it, they are saying it works WAY better than the garden-hose stethescope--hearing detonation well before where they thought 'they were O.K.'...

 

Remember it's not the detonation you hear that gets you. Its the stuff you never hear that breaks things! You just stay on it, oblivious.

 

I get the impression Ben is spending a lot of time at WOT...

[cygnusx1]

Great points Tony.

 

When I installed my head last year, just for kicks, I ran a bit of 400 grit lightly around the oustide rim of the combustion chambers in a circular motion so you could just begin to see the swirl marks.  I don't know if it was wise or not, but I did it to give the head surface some "teeth" to bite into the fire ring a little better.  I also de-burred all the machined edges and polished them up a little with a rouge stick.

Edited June 21, 2010 by cygnusx1

[yetterben]

What octane gas is everybody using? 91 octane no e85 blend same station every time on the highway.

When was the last calibration of the torque wrench used? I have two clicker and one wand. Verified trq with all three.

Was there a re torque after initial start? No re torque gasket said not needed as well as no sealing agents needed.

What is the surface finish of the head and block (too smooth machining, and you can slip easier than properly finished pieces...) Head/Block was gently scrapped removing gasket material scuffed with green scotch brite and then swirled lightly with 800 grit emery.

Are the MSQ files IDENTICAL including all REQ FUEL / Injector Sizing / Fuel Pressure? If not/why not? I am only using his ve and spark map. Both have been tamed down. Timing lowered all over the map under boost. Fuel req was 9.0 i raised to 9.1 and have sat with someone and changed a few cells as needed. Pretty spot on other than that. 440cc injectors. Fuel pressure 40psi static. rrfpr 1:1. Holley red for a lift pump to surge tank. Dual walbro 255 up front supplying the go juice.

 

This car sees track like abuse on the street. I spend 70 percent of my driving at wot. Remember i live in the sticks in the middle of 6 valleys. Twists turns its like the hills of western PA here. Most of the roads i drive on are not on any map and are 1 car wide. Tuning for every day driving is perfect starts every time now, cruises excellent etc etc

 

This car needs to be treated as a track car i guess as that's the kind of abuse i bestow upon it.

Edited June 21, 2010 by yetterben

[yetterben]

What surface prep should be taken? Trying the msa gasket now. COpper spray or anything special for this one.

Edited June 21, 2010 by yetterben

[yetterben]

Thinking real hard about dumping the whole thing and going back to triples. Takers.....