Hype Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 I've owned several s13s, but I've always entertained the thought of building a 280z 2+2 if I could find a 75 (no smog test in CA!) Well, I just bought one but I was about to start my s13 build so I need to make up my mind which would be a better platform. My goal is to have a DD that I can occasionally autox/drift (at the track!) Not looking for extreme power in my build, just mainly a car that I can set up well and can use at the track and also on a long road trip without a breakdown in BFE because of accumulated stress from autox days. Main concerns: - Chassis: In a writeup for a weld-in reinforcement kit it was said that even with the 280z's reinforcement, the frame rails don't extend all the way back. How does a 2+2 compare to the coupe? I can provide pics if need be, but I'm just not too familiar with the underside of these cars yet. - How does the 2+2 s30 compare to an s13? Is there a significant advantage to the s13 that can't be fixed by some reinforcement of the s30 chassis? Yes, I have friends and professionals I can have work on the car if need be. - Seeing the power being made reliably on a stock l28et bottom end was an eye opener. Stock KAs are making 300hp on stock bottom end for perfectly reliable DDs, but I think high revs are especially taxing to that motor due to the high piston speeds. Autox and drift have you spending life at the top of the rev range and that's why I was going to go with forged internals for my KA build. Am I correct in assuming that all things equal the L28 would have a longevity advantage due to the smoothness of an L6 and slower piston speed? This is not a question about hp or cost. Both ka24de-t and l28et make the power I want and my s30 isn't in need of any serious repair. Just trying to sort out my concerns here so I can get going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Why a 2+2? 2+2 is heavier if you are doing auto cross and drifting. I also think they are ~ 6 inches longer. Not I don't think the bracing is any better than a couple. The rails do not extend all the way to the rear. The best mod to get would be Bad Dog frame rails if you are looking for that. They weld directly over the top of the stock ones and connect the sub frames. They are popular to hold the torque of a V8. I think because a 240sx is so popular it would be much cooler to drift an S30. I have heard it is harder to keep sideways. Maybe because of suspension differences? The wheelbase (on a coupe S30) is shorter than a 240sx. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype Posted June 3, 2010 Author Share Posted June 3, 2010 Why a 2+2? 2+2 is heavier if you are doing auto cross and drifting. Yes, definitely heavier but a 2+2 is what I want for my DD. I think an s14 base would be the car I'd pick up if I wanted to race competitively. My problem is I like both my 240sx and the 280z but only want to spend my upgrade $$$ on one car and am having a hard time making up my mind. Is the more modern s13 chassis going to be a better overall handling platform for me? If the s30 was a coupe it'd be an easy answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theguppies Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 you can't drift in a s30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19762802+2 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) The 2+2 is 12 inches longer then a coupe and most of the time they are nice for autocrossing because of the longer wheelbase. In my opinion there isn't a large difference between coupes and 2+2's, Sure they are heavy but you can gut any car if weight is an issue. IMO the 2+2 is a nice cruiser, while the coupe is for people with more performance in mind. There are people that drift S30's its not easy and you have to get used to it, but it goes that way with most cars. If you want something more reliable I would go with the s13 as the older s30 will probably break down more such as electrical and such (which might not be a problem). It mostly comes down to what you want to do. I think it would be awesome to see a drifting/autoxing 2+2. Edited June 3, 2010 by 19752802+2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hype Posted June 4, 2010 Author Share Posted June 4, 2010 The 2+2 is 12 inches longer then a coupe and most of the time they are nice for autocrossing because of the longer wheelbase. In my opinion there isn't a large difference between coupes and 2+2's, Sure they are heavy but you can gut any car if weight is an issue. IMO the 2+2 is a nice cruiser, while the coupe is for people with more performance in mind. There are people that drift S30's its not easy and you have to get used to it, but it goes that way with most cars. If you want something more reliable I would go with the s13 as the older s30 will probably break down more such as electrical and such (which might not be a problem). It mostly comes down to what you want to do. I think it would be awesome to see a drifting/autoxing 2+2. Awesome reply man, this is exactly what I was looking for. I was worried there was something terribly bad about the handling of the 2+2, with the back seat being a design afterthought. I considered the additional wheelbase but I never thought someone would highlight it as a positive since most people balk at the heavier s30s anyway. About the drifting, there was a thread either here or one of the s30 boards about a guy who actually had a drift S30 that he used professionally. It was a pretty good car, winning in local events but I remember the OP in that thread saying no matter what he did with the steering rack he could only get as much steering angle as a stock s13. It's gotchas like that that I am looking out for before I sell my s13s and go all in to this project. As for reliability, if I made the Z my project car it'd get all cleaned up including looking for hidden rust and rotted wiring so no big there but good looking out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 you can't drift in a s30. Your mind state is not built for what this site is made for. If you have the money and will power you can do anything. This site is all about high performance cars. If you had that mindset then you wouldn't have said such a thing. Sure you can drift an S30. Why not? Its already been done. What makes it that you "can't"? I don't see any reason why I cant? I could drift a long bed 4 door dually truck if I wanted to. I could probably even drift a SUV, it would have to be lowered and obviously highly modified but I could still see it happening. Just trying to make a point, that statement just seemed so opinionated. Basically I am saying prove it, I can prove that you CAN drift an S30. I have a picture of one drifting saved somewhere anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 The 2+2 is 12 inches longer then a coupe and most of the time they are nice for autocrossing because of the longer wheelbase. In my opinion there isn't a large difference between coupes and 2+2's, Sure they are heavy but you can gut any car if weight is an issue. IMO the 2+2 is a nice cruiser, while the coupe is for people with more performance in mind. There are people that drift S30's its not easy and you have to get used to it, but it goes that way with most cars. If you want something more reliable I would go with the s13 as the older s30 will probably break down more such as electrical and such (which might not be a problem). It mostly comes down to what you want to do. I think it would be awesome to see a drifting/autoxing 2+2. I agree with this. I always have the idea in my head that less weight is easier and cheaper than the more power side. I also like the idea of 400hp in 2200lbs. I have seen a few done up 2+2's that I really liked. Every car always comes down to the wheels for me. If the wheels don't look good the entire car is shot. LOL. Steelies count for the look good side though. Sleeper look. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260ruztmachine Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 If you're looking into spending $$ on the S30, I went to ecology (junkyard) and saw a 1977 2+2 with an EFI L28. And there's a 50% off sale this saturday and sunday 06/05/2010 & 06/06/2010. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
260ruztmachine Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 If you're looking into spending $$ on the S30, I went to ecology (junkyard) and saw a 1977 2+2 with an EFI L28. And there's a 50% off sale this saturday and sunday 06/05/2010 & 06/06/2010. Ecology down in Chula Vista, there's two of them. The one nearest to the Otay Border and Brownfield (Otay Mesa Ecology I think) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 you can't drift in a s30. Wow, and all those CarBoy magazines from the 80's I got with S30's Drifting Togue are just figments of my imagination. Untalented people can't drift an S30. Untalented people can't drift an FWD car, either. If you can drive, you can drift anything. As for 2+2 and heaviness, my 76 weighed in at 2695# at SanAntonio Dragway, and that coincided nicely with my consistent 15.50 1/4 mile times (and that was with my then 255# frame in the car, wet. It is of course a Fairlady Z 2/2, but anything you have on that car you can do to a 280Z and get nearly an identical weight out of it. Power for that kind of weight is relatively easy to achieve to a 10:1 P/W Ratio with even a non-intercooled low-boost turbo. Thing is this would be a non-forged internals setup so your RPMS would be limited to below 7000. Gear accordingly and for the occasional drift day you should be fine. With a turbo motor, it IS easier to make 10 or 20 more HP than it will be to take out 100 or 200# from the car. There is low hanging fruit that will net you that much, and get you close to the Fairlady Z 2/2 wieghts, but after that 'weighing less' will cost a LOT more than 'making more turbo power'... Put on some stock sized tires on stock sized rims and you will be amazed how easily you can power-throttle steer an S30 with over 250HP at the rear wheels... For that matter, put a 275HP Turbo VW motor in the back of a 2315# VW Microbus and you would be amazed what you can do on a set of stock 5.60-15 Bias Ply Tires.... We used Bad Dog Frame Rails for 'rust repair' on our Bonneville car (1976 280Z 2+2). There are some extensions to make because the floor is longer (as noted) but the sections that are not covered by the front and rear frame parts Bad Dog Sells are simple box structures easily made at any commercial HVAC shop for pennies. They can make a "Hat Stringer" for duct reinforcement out of 12 or 14 gauge electroplated or flashed steel usually up to 12' long for a reasonable price, and you will be amazed where you find it will fit nicely for stiffening up a floorboard or other project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I could drift a long bed 4 door dually truck if I wanted to. Don't ask my son about that... Most of those have 454 Rat Motors in them, and once those tires are burning the only way to stop it is lift the throttle. Mine will bang the gears into high gear and just sit there boiling, all you got to do is have some forward momentum and get them slipping and Rat Torque will take care of the rest. Yes, I have a Longbed, Chevy 3+3 (four door crew cab, bench seats) It will not leave a stop without burning the tires if I take the 2'X6' sheet of 1/2" thick diamond plate and cross bed tool box out of the bed! Drifting a Dually is not hard at all. Now a 1984 550cc Suzuki Alto....THAT is a 'drift challenge'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zmanco Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 (edited) I just can't resist: I'll add some more thoughts based on my experience with an S30: - 300 HP from a turbo L28 is still reasonably streetable and reliable, although the power delivery on boost is tough to modulate - I don't think 400 HP would qualify as streetable or very reliable for a DD. - The more you modify the suspension to improve track performance, the less fun it's going to become as a DD. I don't know how an S30 compares in this regard to an S13, but I'd guess that the S30 would need more agressive mods so perhaps a well set up S13 would be easier on the street? I don't know this - perhaps others can chime in here. I'm not a huge fan of the 2+2 due to the extra weight, but I suspect that a warmed-over (engine and suspension) 2+2 would be pretty unique just about anywhere you went. You'd surprise a lot of people on the track I'm sure. Edited June 4, 2010 by Zmanco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 Don't ask my son about that... Most of those have 454 Rat Motors in them, and once those tires are burning the only way to stop it is lift the throttle. Mine will bang the gears into high gear and just sit there boiling, all you got to do is have some forward momentum and get them slipping and Rat Torque will take care of the rest. Yes, I have a Longbed, Chevy 3+3 (four door crew cab, bench seats) It will not leave a stop without burning the tires if I take the 2'X6' sheet of 1/2" thick diamond plate and cross bed tool box out of the bed! Drifting a Dually is not hard at all. Now a 1984 550cc Suzuki Alto....THAT is a 'drift challenge'! LOL. The reason I posted the dually comment was, my dad did it in his 03 ram 3500 cummins. Sideways for a good long time, controlled to. Wonder where I get my influence from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 I would say from over 40K miles of driving, a 350HP S30 is streetable. I have added comments in the 'modulate' thread. For drifting an eccentric cam on the TB would make quick work of the modulation required. I would look at the link for the guy from Trinidad and his fuzzy logic stepper-motor controled BOV. The problem I have seen with most turbos in the USA is the BOV's are set up atrociously. Never right. You should not hear them hard. They should bleed. If you can keep the pressure in the intake, and bleed off the excess to keep the turbo in stable flow area (think launch control or flat-shift) your modulation is much easier as you never really go negative pressure in the intake tract between the turbo and T/B. If you have a deecent BOV setup, modulation becomes MUCH easier. You can not have a ham-hock for a throttle foot. I literally use my big toe in some cases. A light flywheel makes it worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted June 4, 2010 Share Posted June 4, 2010 (edited) Damn, YouTube is amazing! This actually reminds me of my old Suzuki SuperTurbo... I was a bad youth, even with a 550cc microcar (yes, at that time I fit in one!) Edited June 4, 2010 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModernS30 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 I would say from over 40K miles of driving, a 350HP S30 is streetable. I have added comments in the 'modulate' thread. For drifting an eccentric cam on the TB would make quick work of the modulation required. I would look at the link for the guy from Trinidad and his fuzzy logic stepper-motor controled BOV. The problem I have seen with most turbos in the USA is the BOV's are set up atrociously. Never right. You should not hear them hard. They should bleed. If you can keep the pressure in the intake, and bleed off the excess to keep the turbo in stable flow area (think launch control or flat-shift) your modulation is much easier as you never really go negative pressure in the intake tract between the turbo and T/B. If you have a deecent BOV setup, modulation becomes MUCH easier. You can not have a ham-hock for a throttle foot. I literally use my big toe in some cases. A light flywheel makes it worse. Most people have a poor conception of a blow off valve. The idea is not to look like a Bad a** with your loud bov saying you have a turbo. I know the idea is to have it setup proper where it just bleeds enough pressure to not pop your piping off or anything that way the residual pressure during shifting gets rid of the 'turbo lag'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoov100 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 you can't drift in a s30. If I can drift a 4 door diesel dually, then you sure as hell can drift a 2 and a half seat s30. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19762802+2 Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 Also a thing to remember if you even car, 2+2 parts are either expensive or cheap as heck depending on how available they are. If your looking to restore the interior good luck if not good for you! The nice thing about 2+2's is that most people don't want them so them sell them for cheap so you can have tons of parts cars and not pay very much for them. I just bought a second 2+2 with barely any rust and used to be raced for $350. Plus if you have ever seen Jay's Car or 1FastZ you know any 2+2 can look good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
palauoriginal Posted June 5, 2010 Share Posted June 5, 2010 (edited) in my opinion s13 is the best option here. however if you trying to drift a z i would consider the steering angle, brake, and suspension options. suspension gets expensive rather quickly on these cars. i don't know about other hybridzer's but my ebrake barely works at all kinda, hard to adjust angle with no ebrake the steering angle on the z car is very shallow the chassis is also pretty lose but unless your trying to be competitive or learn to drift a z will be a good/fun project the added wheelbase will definately help definitely a change from all the s13's my .02 Edited June 5, 2010 by palauoriginal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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