Down on truck engines?

[Cable]

I would have gone sbc but the engines don't seem too much cheaper and the extra setback of the ls is always a plus.

 

The JTR SBC placement sits farther back than the LS does with the JCI mounts..... Just thought you'd wanna know.

[emeraldlion]

Wonder how I missed that. Oh well, the engine itself makes up for it I suppose. Gonna have to search that one and read up.

[BRAAP]

I keep seeing this thread pop up in "New posts" and every time I get ready to contribute, Cable has already covered it, and then some! Nothing more to add other than, thank you Cable.

 

As already covered, the label “Truck engine” vs “Car engine” means squat diddly other than what variant of the LSx family the engine started life from! This also applies to other monikers as well. People that pass judgment on a power plant based on the term “Truck” vs “Car” without actually looking into what those differences really are, is.... not to put to fine a point on it, an idiot! It's a shame there are so many of these "computer engine builders" out there, blindly trying to persuade others with their uneducated ill contrived bias/judgment as fact because their feable little minds inability to open and get passed the fact that the term “Truck engine” does not automatically denote an inferior power-plant, perpetuating more automative performance myths that many newbs trying to glean as much factual tech as they can, buy into!

Ok, enough ranting…

 

My personal experience on the topic, having gone with the 5.3L LM7 as the interim choice for my LSx project, long term powerplant to be based on the 6.0L.

I have also found price to purchase an LSx outright, the truck engines, in particular the iron block 5.3L are generally much easier on the pocket book. As Cable mentioned, there were more 5.3L engines produced than all other LSx RPO's combined! Weight of the iron block vs aluminum block variants being around 65-70 lbs, (all else being equal, cranks, damper, FEADS, intake, exhaust mani's etc). Depending on what FEADS one needs, (GM speak for Front Engine Accessory Drive System), and how resourceful they are using eBay, Craigslist and the various LSx forums, the truck power plants can still come in for less after being re-outfitted with the car FEADS than a comparable car LSx with the needed FEADS already on it. For some that only need the water pump and alternator, (no A/C, no P/S, etc) it is even easier. Used items for the LSx can be had for good prices. Some examples of deals I have ran across are; F-body LS1 intake manifold for only $55 shipped. Picked up the 0968 grind LS1 Vette cam with LOW miles, (.500" lift, 115.5 LSA) for only $65 shipped. Brand new LS6 take out lifters for $110 shipped. Brand new LS6 yellow, take out valve springs for $55 shipped, etc. As Cable pointed out, when going for a cam swap wanting to use OE cams, the '02+ LS6 cam is a good choice, especially over the milder '01 LS6 cam, (same duration, lift and LSA as the LS2 cams).

Do beware when placing WTB ads as the scammers/thief's are prowling the WTB sections of the car forums. I got ripped off trying to source the milder '01 LS6 cam for my little 5.3, known documented scammer/thief Ernesto Gonzales Castillo found my WTB ad for that cam, contacted me Via E-mail, we carried on several E-mails back and forth, he even supplied picture of the cam with the casting number, I paid for it never heard from him again, then a little research found this;

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/negative-trader-feedback/818849-scammer-alert-ernesto-gonzalez-castillo.html

Too bad I didn’t search first.

 

Truck LSx, great bang for the buck, OH yeah, especially if the buyer is resourceful in acquiring the other necessary hardware/accy needed for their conversion project.

[zgeezer]

That's some good info I hadn't come across yet guys, thanks. Especially on the a/c stuff. Around the dallas area 5.3 are goin 500 and the lq4 are going for about 900. I'm one of the fortunate that lives in Texas and this great state doesn't care what you do to your car. 25 years and older only have to pass safety inspection. As far as 5.3 vs. 6.0 I really have no preference figured get the most displacement you can afford and the weight difference b/w the two seems to be negligible considering the extra .7 displacement. The aluminum block 5.3's seem to be fetching a premium over the iron blocks. As far as carbs go I'm more familiar with them (go with watcha know) and cleaning up the wiring is a BIG positive for me. Plus I really like the old school look of the carbureted engine bay. I'm going for a blend between muscle and sport here. I would have gone sbc but the engines don't seem too much cheaper and the extra setback of the ls is always a plus.

 

Kwik Performance offers a A/C compressor mount kit (high passenger side mounting location) to work with the truck accessories for $197.

 

I purchased both their A/C mount and dedicated alternator mount. Both are well engineered pieces. The problem is that both interfere with the S30 inner fenders (Strut mounts). Even with the relocation forward, the alternator touches the side panel. This could be cured if one really wanted to "get ignorant" with a BFH on the alternator side. One half inch would cure the interference, but the A/C is a lost cause. Sooooo, unless one is a good fabricator (which I am not) the JCI mount appears to be the only show in town.

 

G

[zgeezer]

Do beware when placing WTB ads as the scammers/thief's are prowling the WTB sections of the car forums. I got ripped off trying to source the milder '01 LS6 cam for my little 5.3, known documented scammer/thief Ernesto Gonzales Castillo found my WTB ad for that cam, contacted me Via E-mail, we carried on several E-mails back and forth, he even supplied picture of the cam with the casting number, I paid for it never heard from him again, then a little research found this;

 

I purchased my LS6 cam and springs from SuperCars in Texas. I don't know for a fact that my LS6 cam and springs came out of new 'vette that was driven from showroom to shop on the same day, but that's what I was told and that is what they looked like upon arrival. Ligenfelter also sells pull off parts on his web site.

 

g

[emeraldlion]

Wow. This got alot more attention than I had expected, which is a good thing. BRAAP, thank you for the input and experience in the matter. With everything taken into acount, if an individual doesn't particularly care about the extra 75-100 pounds and ESPECIALLY if planning on running carb'd ls then the "truck" ls variants seem to be a downright steal.

[revlis240]

cable,

youre in bakersfield? Cool! Im in Valencia, just picked up a 73Z, we can meet up!

 

quick question about your friend that went to the ref and truck motors. If I have a 73, thus smog/carb exempt, can I put in the LQ4? I know that I'll never have to smog it, but I also know that the CHP can send you to the ref if theyre in a bad mood, then the ref has to sign off that you are exempt but will he still sign off a truck motor? Ive been up for 20 hours and read some of your posts, but didnt get to figure our your opinion on that motor in a Z, do you like it?

 

I will never spend $3k on a motor. I do want the v8, but I just cant see spending that much on the LS1...

Edited June 27, 2010 by revlis240

[Cable]

cable,

youre in bakersfield? Cool! Im in Valencia, just picked up a 73Z, we can meet up!

 

quick question about your friend that went to the ref and truck motors. If I have a 73, thus smog/carb exempt, can I put in the LQ4? I know that I'll never have to smog it, but I also know that the CHP can send you to the ref if theyre in a bad mood, then the ref has to sign off that you are exempt but will he still sign off a truck motor? Ive been up for 20 hours and read some of your posts, but didnt get to figure our your opinion on that motor in a Z, do you like it?

 

I will never spend $3k on a motor. I do want the v8, but I just cant see spending that much on the LS1...

 

Like your '73 S30, my '75 S30 is except from SMOG/emissions testing in California.

 

However, if ANY LEO decides to send me to a SMOG ref the game is up for using a truck motor (and many other reasons with my car and engine setup), it wouldn't pass the rest of the visual inspection either, not to mention the sniffer test with my cam and lack of CATS or any other type of emissions equipment.

 

So to answer your question, it is not legal in California to place ANY truck motor in ANY year S30, even with all donor emissions equipment in place. The car could be blowing pure oxygen from the tailpipe(s) and will still fail based solely on the fact of using a truck motor. Even car type LSx's (LS1/LS2/LS4/LS6/LS7/LS9/LSA etc) swapped in a S30 would require ALL of the donor vehicle's emissions equipment to be 'black letter law' legal in California.

 

A big misunderstanding with folks is just because '66-'75 cars/trucks are except from testing, doesn't mean its legal to modify and/or remove SMOG/emissions equipment. Its just that most LEO's don't even know that and the ones that do know 'black letter law' don't care enough to hassle you about it (unless you are being a Richard-Head ).

 

In case I haven't made it clear in earlier posts, I love my 6.0 LQ4. It hauls the mail while getting damn near 30 mpg while driving faster than the speed limit.

 

Although I want to make it clear that the 5.3 is a fine motor and placed in a S30 is a nice setup too, especially with a mild aftermarket cam or even '02+ LS6 cam. If I ever do another S30 for myself it'll be a cammed 5.3 with some type of power adder like nitrous and/or turbo down the road.

 

In my area a 6.0 LQ4 costs twice as much as a LM7 5.3 (turnkey) and doesn't make that much more power vs a LQ4 6.0 to be worth it IMHO. If I didn't get my LQ4 for such a steal ($500), LSZ would be powered by a cammed LM7 from a rolled 2004 Escalade right now.

 

Take care.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Cable

[SUNNY Z]

Like your '73 S30, my '75 S30 is except from SMOG/emissions testing in California.

 

However, if ANY ...

So to answer your question, it is not legal in California to place ANY truck motor in ANY year S30, even with all donor emissions equipment in place. The car could be blowing pure oxygen from the tailpipe(s) and will still fail based solely on the fact of using a truck motor. Even car type LSx's (LS1/LS2/LS4/LS6/LS7/LS9/LSA etc) swapped in a S30 would require ALL of the donor vehicle's emissions equipment to be 'black letter law' legal in California.

...

 

 

 

Glad I live in Kansas.

 

No emissions for this guy to pass!

Edited June 28, 2010 by SUNNY Z

[revlis240]

please excuse my noob question, but just for the sake of being TRULY exempt, what relatively popular pre 75 V8 motors can/do people use? are there any? That way even if i go get sent to the ref, it wouldnt matter...

Edited June 30, 2010 by revlis240

[Cable]

please excuse my noob question, but just for the sake of being TRULY exempt, what relatively popular pre 75 V8 motors can/do people use? are there any? That way even if i go get sent to the ref, it wouldnt matter...

 

Unless the car/truck is pre '66 you can never be totally exempt from California SMOG laws, regardless of the engine selection.

 

The only way to avoid from having any trouble with a SMOG ref is to leave your S30 bone stock.

[revlis240]

thats got me a little confused, say you use a motor from a 1975 chevy, which had little to no smog equipment anyway, it would be a lot less hassle to pass by the ref than putting in a LS1 wouldnt it?

 

Also, my reading indicates that the car to truck rule applies to trucks OVER one ton. meaning you can use a 1/2 ton truck motor in a car and be legal. I may totally be wrong, pending further research...

 

Here is all I have found from the BAR so far:

 

CLASSIFICATION

Don't mix engine and vehicle classifications which will degrade the emissions certification standards. For example, a heavy–duty engine cannot be installed in a light–duty exhaust–controlled chassis even if they have the same displacement. Non–emissions controlled power plants such as industrial or off–road–use–only engines may not be placed in any exhaust–controlled vehicle.

 

That is from:

http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResources/07_AutoRepair/Engine_Change_Guidelines.html

Edited June 30, 2010 by revlis240

[Cable]

You already answered your own question, "Don't mix engine and vehicle classifications....".

 

For the sake of not continuing to hijack this thread, start a new one or take it to PM.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Cable

[revlis240]

right, but prelim research indicates that light duty trucks (S-10s and F150s etc) can be in the same family/classification as cars. you just cannot mix HD with SD...

 

I left a voicemail for the ref, who will supposedly call me back today and we will have our answer!

Edited June 30, 2010 by revlis240

[emeraldlion]

Thanks for trying to keep things on track cable I really feel for you guys in cali. Makes things awefully difficult. I appreciate everyone's response and it seems that the truck engines are a great way to save dollars in the swap if you're not too concerned about adding around 100 pounds from the iron block. Simple cam and head swap with stock components seem to bring you up to performance levels. Now I have been reading that the iron/aluminum combo tend to have higher risk of "piston slap" noise from the different allows expanding at different rates. Seeing as though these engines are being run with high mileage it does not seem to lend itself to excesive wear.

[Cable]

Now I have been reading that the iron/aluminum combo tend to have higher risk of "piston slap" noise from the different allows expanding at different rates. Seeing as though these engines are being run with high mileage it does not seem to lend itself to excesive wear.

 

Not sure what you have read exactly, but all early LSx engines suffered from piston slap at colder temps, both aluminum and iron blocks. GM realized the problem and as far as I know it was a thing of the past by 2002. My 2005 LQ4 has no slap whatsoever and any temp that is detectable by ear or either of my knock sensors.

 

BTW, even the aluminum blocks have pressed in iron sleeves so the expansion rate differences of cylinder walls would be nil between iron blocked LSx's and aluminum LSx's with pressed in iron sleeves.

 

Sounds to me like what you read is another 'bias against iron block LSx' guy blowing smoke....

[emeraldlion]

thanks for the correction on that.

[SUNNY Z]

Lots of people are ill-informed on the subject of LS-based engines. I hear alot of things from newcomers that just make me

 

The very best thing you can do is buy a book or two on the subject, and read your little heart out. It will save you lots of searching, and it is nice to have for a reference. I believe Carcraft is the maker of my favorite LS1 books. I'll have to dig them out!

[BRAAP]

Lots of people are ill-informed on the subject of LS-based engines. I hear alot of things from newcomers that just make me

Just the other day on another forum, LSx newbs were making claims that the LSx Drive By Wire throttle was only used engines with a certain crank trigger tooth count, then that theory changed to somehow being tied to the material the block was cast from...

 

 

The very best thing you can do is buy a book or two on the subject, and read your little heart out. It will save you lots of searching, and it is nice to have for a reference. I believe Carcraft is the maker of my favorite LS1 books. I'll have to dig them out!

 

I agree, LSx books are an invaluable resource for budding LSx swapping enthusiasts. In this link is compilation of a few worthy LSx books;

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/72815-“swap-gm-ls-series-engines-into-almost-anything”-book/

[John Scott]

Plus I really like the old school look of the carbureted engine bay. I'm going for a blend between muscle and sport here. I would have gone sbc but the engines don't seem too much cheaper and the extra setback of the ls is always a plus.

You're not alone.

Carb'd LSXs are cool!