Keyboard Air Duster Used to Cool Fuel Rail

[Tony D]

I understand, and tend to agree with Tony D, but what I see with NEW cars tends to shoot some holes in some of his therories.

Firstly: Anybody who is putting ANYTHING I have said about a 40 year old system to use in a MODERN returnless system is an idiot. They are two different animals. For someone to actually think ANYTHING I have EVER discussed was meant to apply to a modern system...foolishly stupid is the most polite way I can phrase it. Who the hell would make such a stupid leap of (il)logic?

 

Better put your money where your mouth is with that above comment and show me ONE Thing I have stated which is incorrect, not factual, nor based on firsthand observation on the fuel system beiong discussed in this thread (And I don't recall the car in question having a modern Returnless Fuel System).

 

You think the heat and the fact of a returnless fuel system has ANYTHING to do with it? Do you understand the impetus for a returnless system (EVAP Regulations)?

 

Since you are so up on them, please tell the rest of the forum how they control fuel pressure.

 

Please tell them when the car is off, on these returnless fuel systems, what happens as the fuel injectors heat soak?

 

Edify us as to what happens should the anti-return valve in the fuel system malfunctions due to a small speck of dirt in it, or whatever...

 

 

NOW....

 

Understand that the older systems have a return line, and the FPR is part of the issue that CONTRIBUTES to the problem. The fuel pressure is NOT ALLOWED TO RISE and keep the vapor from forming. The FPR releases the hot fuel back to the tank, and eventually as the heat soak goes away, you see a DECREASE (then resultant flash to vapor) of the fuel.

 

Were you to clamp the fuel supply and fuel return line on the car in this post when you shut it off, it would react EXACTLY like a current returnless system, the fuel would NOT turn to vapor.

 

If you are going to throw nebulous B.S. commentary about me not knowing what I'm talking about, you damn well better puke up some specifics and discuss it rather than throwing nebulosities or calling them 'theories'! I don't think you know as much as you think you do. About the new, or old systems. You have the typical attitude of someone who works on new stuff and hasn't a CLUE about any historical problems or perspectives. You may work on the new stuff all day long, but that doesn't mean you know anything at all about what we are discussing here on a nearly 40 year old system. Don't ascribe my 'theories' to a new fuel system, I have NEVER discussed a returnless system, so I have no 'theories' to espouse about it--other than the questions I posited above. I know the answers, the question is do you, Jasper?

Edited July 13, 2010 by Tony D

[Tony D]

Additionally, the loss of fuel pressure to "0" will indicate a leak somewhere---usually the fuel pump check valve. There are check valves that have low open pressures which can be installed in the line to replicate the action of the in-pump check valve. This will aid in the loss of pressure. If you loose pressure, you will have issues.

 

Then again, the three second power-on of the fuel pump (and maybe a light on the dash triggered by a 37psi pressure switch in the rail) before starting will also negate the hard-starting issues that come with 'no fuel pressure' in the rail.

[FlatBlack]

Here is Tony D's post [sans bickering] for those who don't want to read a page full of rant:

 

Understand that the older systems have a return line, and the FPR is part of the issue that CONTRIBUTES to the problem. The fuel pressure is NOT ALLOWED TO RISE and keep the vapor from forming. The FPR releases the hot fuel back to the tank, and eventually as the heat soak goes away, you see a DECREASE (then resultant flash to vapor) of the fuel.

 

Were you to clamp the fuel supply and fuel return line on the car in this post when you shut it off, it would react EXACTLY like a current returnless system, the fuel would NOT turn to vapor.

 

I don't think Jasper was questioning your unlimited knowledge...

 

I'm am personaly a bit baffled

[RTz]

Wake up on the wrong side of the Globe Tony?

[jas280z]

Let me just make sure I am making the correct plan to solve this problem. First off I need to find where I am losing pressure overnight, even when heat soak is not a issue. Secondly I need to make a way to put a priming pulse on my 280z, as "If you don't have that priming pulse to drive out any heat soaked fuel as SOON as the injectors fire the first time, the WHOLE RAIL can flash vaporise from the sudden drop in fuel pressure, and then you're screwed! EVEN IF FUEL PRESSURE IS CORRECT! -TonyD"

 

Hopefully rectifying these issues will allow me to avoid future heat related fuel vaporization.

 

Thank you for all the help, I was having a hard time understanding the mechanics of the problem, but I think I understand it now.

[jasper]

Firstly, here are are some words;

egotistical, concieted, bully, know it all, abusive, intelligent, vindictive, etc.....

Choose the ones that apply....or add your own.

 

Second: The quote you use to vilify me, was taken out of context.If you refer to the entire post, you may recall the phrases:" I'm a bit perplexed", and "I'm personaly baffled". These statements indicate a lack of knowledge, and or understanding.

The intended inflection was one of looking for a clarification/explanation/edification.

R.I.F.

 

As for my expereince, it is considerable. Does it COMPARE to yours??, YES, but from my perspective.....you have more.

CONGRATULATIONS, you are smarter than me. BTW, I know people smarter than you.

 

The comparison of old and new fuel systems is somewhat reasonable,and useful.

They both use gasoline as a fuel.

They both are fuel injected.

They use different fuel systems.

One has hot start problems, one doesn't.

since this is HybridZ, we tend to try and improve on the 40 year old car, using the technology available today.

 

I saw some obvious paralells between new and old, and not knowing everything, questioned how and why, one system was better than the other.

The phrase "tends to shoot some holes in some of his theories", would have been better worded; some concepts seem contradictory to others. Hence being baffled.

MEA CULPA.

I was looking to you for a better understanding, hence the smile.......Didn't happen.

 

YOU HAVE a reputation for ABUSIVE RANTS. It is well deserved.

I guess this is your cross to bear...having knowledge far above those of mortal men.

 

My suggestion to you is to go get a 6 pack, and play a game of WHACK A MOLE......you'll feel better.

Edited July 14, 2010 by jasper

[cygnusx1]

 There is a spec in the FSM as to how long the system should hold pressure, if I remember right.  Of course, after it cools down, who cares, as long as the system does not drain back you are good. 

 

I diagnosed my fist starting issue with my 280Z back in 1991 or so.  It suddenly began cranking excessively before startup.  I did not know the EFI very well yet.  Eventually I pinpointed the check valve in the pump.  I subsequently went on to learn, understand, and memorize the function of the entire system from the FSM and the sparse Internet sources at the time,.  I even have a printout of which resistor INSIDE the ECU you can change to effect which fueling function.  I can tell you that when it's all working properly, the hot start issues are barely noticeable in a NYC Summer. 

Edited July 14, 2010 by cygnusx1

[Tony D]

Second: The quote you use to vilify me, was taken out of context.If you refer to the entire post, you may recall the phrases:" I'm a bit perplexed", and "I'm personaly baffled". These statements indicate a lack of knowledge, and or understanding.

The intended inflection was one of looking for a clarification/explanation/edification.

R.I.F.

 

Indubitably it is, and this is why you have chosen to say 'my theories are all shot full of holes' yet proffer absolutely nothing in response to my query as to exactly what I said was incorrect.

 

Abusive rant? You were the one getting personal, and then coucing is from the 'gee shucks I don't know nuthin man' perplexed commentary. If youre so perplexed, what exactly am I wrong about in this situation? How have I misled the gentleman?

 

If you want to chuck stones in a non-helpful manner I'd suggest you don't. Jumping in a thread to profess ignorance helps nobody.

 

Ron, I did get up on the wrong side of the world. And when I see stupid commentary like this I should take it to PM, but in this case, it's not worth it. I institute a self-ban of a week for my misbehaviour. But idiots need a smacking now and again and you moderators can't have all the fun. That agression can not stand.

 

And as for 'reputation of abusive rants'---get your f-ing forums staright. If you have a hard-on from a forum where i no longer post, and haven't for some time now-you need to leave your bigoted ideas at the door. This ain't there, and what I posted was not abusive nor conceited. If you can't take questions in a mature matter, don't post inflammatory things about someone and then expect not to go challenged.

 

As you have admitted, you have nothing to add---and have not responded to what 'holes' which are applicable.

 

If you are suggesting the guy to go a returnless system, you damn well can state that instead of nebulous commentary and stone-throwing.

 

I'll go to Thailand for a week in exile. So goes my self-expurgation from the forum for my outburst.

[jasper]

First, your self admitted abusive ranting on other sites is a given.

Despite your head in the sand, it is obvious here also...ask around if you dare.

 

You put many words in my mouth, FEW of which are true.

My last post was ment to address your ABUSIVE/ ARROGANT/ ABRASIVE manor.

 

CHECK MATE. TOUCHE!

You should take notice: no technical issues were discussed in my previuos reply,.Just your

ABUSIVE behavior.

 

If you, as a man, feel the need to a "SMACKING NOW", I'll PM you my street address, upon your request. Bring your afore mentioned bat. ( see your previous posts extoling your manly bravado)

Edited July 14, 2010 by jasper