high comp. turbo setup detonation?

[280zbeeT]

So, today I met up with a guy whos going to help me finish my car.

 

I have n42 block, .30bore p90head, NA cam, there both in good rebuilt condition, with brand new fel pro gasket set.

 

Now, my buddy who wants to work on the car, is telling me with this setup below, Im going to blow this engine within a month or so..

The wastegate is setup for a 17lb spring, the haltech is tuned to 10lbs, I detonated my previous engine which had dished pistons as well, hes also telling me my MSD6a box will not do Anything that the Haltech cannot already do and Its a waste of time to finish building this engine and that I need to rebuilt my other block with dished pistons and do it that way in order for it to last as a Daily Driven car.. Now, I know Tony D and others here have turbo NA flat top high compression setups, and was wondering what they did different to make it last?

 

The one thing he is saying, My 550cc Rx7 injectors are to big, and wrong for the setup, and the GT30r turbo is way to big as well and that is main reason I will detonate with the Flat top pistons.. Even saying my Fel pro Head gasket will Not work and will cause me to blow as well.. Can I please get some more opinions and advice on what you think about this? if you had this setup as I do below what would you do? I know Ive had a topic about building this setup, and if it will work etc. but as far as longevity goes, What if I got a new Tune, to 10lbs, and didnt boost anymore then 10lbs with my current setup?? Would that be safe as a daily driver? What do you guys think? thank you and I really appreciate everything you guys do for us newer guys.. I am going to keep reading on this issue. Also, I guess I cannot retard timing during boost since I have a Z31 distributor, and stock ignition coil unless I get the LS1 coil packs and the trigger wheel to connect to haltech.. I told him you know Ive head and read lots of people running this setup, with big injectors and big turbo and a good tune for daily driver and no detonation? so Im just so confused.. there So many damn opinions out there I dont know what to believe! Thank you !

 

Engine Upgrades:

82 Nissan 280zx Motor Stock F54 Block

ARP Rod Bolts

ARP Head Studs

76 Intake with 60mm Throttle Body

Rx7 550 Injectors

Rx7 Oil Cooler

24x12x3 Intercooler

2.5" Intercooler Piping

HKS Blow-off Valve

Haltech E11-V2 With flying lead harness

Palnet Fuel Rail with Fuel Gauge

Tial Wastegate w/17 PSI Spring.

GT30R Ball Bearing Turbo

DynoMax 2.5 Welded Exhaust

Dual Electronic Fan from Summit

82 Maxima Alternator

Zeitronics Wideband with EGT sensor

Walbro Fuel Pump

K&N Air Filter

Stainless Steel Lines

Standard Stock Clutch

 

 

Drive Train:

240SX 5 Speed Transmission

B&M Shift Kit

3.9 Rear End

Spicer U Joints in Driveshaft and Half Shafts

 

Brakes:

Toyota S13 Calipers in Front

Drilled Rotors

Stainless Steel Brake Lines

ZX Brake Booster

 

Suspension:

Tokico 5 Way Adjustable Shocks

Poly-Bushings all the way around

 

MSA-Sway Bars

[stprasinz]

i ran the same setup, but with dished pistons... I also ran 24 psi of boost... the injectors are a little large. and the boost retard should be through the ecu(if thats what sends signal to the msd, or the msd needs a boost timing master..... or something to that effect. I think you should be able to get a usable tune at 10 psi... I'm currently running 12 psi and have a dished pistons, running a head (p90) with .074 shaved off.... I'm running a factory 300zx ecu, and haven't ran lean yet... also if your wastegate is set to 17 psi, its near impossible to ONLY RUN 10 PSI..... If you have a tune for 10 psi, you probably wanna run a9 psi wastegate for that little level of saftey.. but thats my 2 cents... Oh I also only run 93 octane.... if you mix a little (like 1-2 gallons per tan) of race fuel thats gonna give yu some leeway..... with all that being said, I'm thinking my next build is gonna be flat tops, and .080 off the head.... oh and a good sized turbo..... but thats gonna be race fuel only... (local track has it at the pump 6.99.... ok, thats my thoughts... good luck.

[280zbeeT]

well the MSD isnt in yet.. I have it, but tempted to switch coil pack, and he said that Haltech cannot retard timing During boost unless I upgrade to LS1 coil packs..

 

Also, ya thats what I was thinking start up to 93octane, and mix 100 with 91octane.. This is my only car, and daily driver by the way! so I need to loose some power to get more longevity out of it.. but now Im just scared to set up the engine.. I dont know if hes telling the truth now, before I was so excited but he kind of bummed me out.. my buddy with the stock turbo setup with flatops on a n42 block, is running 15lbs with flat tops, and hasnt had any issue.. and I read on here many other run flat tops too on there turbo setup, and Im guessing boost has nothing to do with detonation, 550cc injectors are fine as long as its insync with the rest of the components, I was thinking to buy a 10lb spring for the wastegat, and tune it to 10lbs, or get a re tune I mean.. and use the 93octane, low boost Im thinking that would work right?

[Tony D]

I don't think I would catagorize 8.5:1 CR as 'high compression'...

[280zbeeT]

thats it? thats all I would have with the setup? I thought my Compression would be 9 or even 10!

[Challenger]

The wastegate is setup for a 17lb spring, the haltech is tuned to 10lbs

 

What if I got a new Tune, to 10lbs, and didnt boost anymore then 10lbs with my current setup??

 

I was thinking to buy a 10lb spring for the wastegat, and tune it to 10lbs, or get a re tune I mean

 

What is it tuned to?

 

and Im guessing boost has nothing to do with detonation

 

I really think you need to do some more learning/research. My advice is to lower the boost way down and get it running on stock boost levels. Learn how your engine and turbo engines in general work and then start to turn up the boost.

 

Also Ive noticed most of your posts are very hard to read. If you take a little more time when you write something, spell things correctly, just use proper english in general, youll get more help. To be honest youll also be treated in a much more mature manner since other members will see you as mature. Just a heads up.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Challenger

[280zbeeT]

Its tuned to 10lbs on my dished pistons n42 block, I switched to a flat top n42 block.

The wastegate has a 17lb spring in it, for when the engine is ready to be tuned to 20lbs again.

I dont see what is hard to understand tho, I try my best to write for people to understand what is confusing?

Im just wondering what they think about the current setup, with the flat tops and all with the injectors and turbo etc. to avoid detonation, not sure how else to word my questions..

[TimZ]

Its tuned to 10lbs on my dished pistons n42 block, I switched to a flat top n42 block.

The wastegate has a 17lb spring in it, for when the engine is ready to be tuned to 20lbs again.

I dont see what is hard to understand tho, I try my best to write for people to understand what is confusing?

Im just wondering what they think about the current setup, with the flat tops and all with the injectors and turbo etc. to avoid detonation, not sure how else to word my questions..

 

Okay, I'll bite.

 

If you have a 17lb wastegate spring, how exactly are you "tuning" it to 10lbs?

[280zbeeT]

the car previous owner tuned it to 10lbs, but it has a 17lb spring, thats all I know.. Im gonna get a new tune tho.. however since the spring is 17, I get boost creep, the boost keep rising so I have to let off at 10lbs by reading my wideband.

[Tony D]

"I dont see what is hard to understand tho, I try my best to write for people to understand what is confusing?"

 

Let's eat, Grandpa.

 

Let's eat Grandpa.

 

Just an example of one comma omitted, changing the whole complexion of a sentence.

 

Seriously though...learn more about your setup. You're parroting sales terms with absolutely no knowledge of what they mean. Or more importantly, what they mean on your car.

 

If you don't know, then who does? Find out, and get things clarified: "What does that mean, tuned to 10 psi?" is a good question to ask when an owner says "It's got a 17 psig wastegate tuned to 10 psi."

 

Does that mean the wastegate is tuned to only give 10psi.

Does that mean the fuel and spark curves are tuned to 10 psi and he gave up so buyer beware if he uses the full 17psi available in the spring?

 

That's what guys are getting at...

[CarJway]

280zbeeT,

 

As we have discussed on the phone... I feel like you keep going back in circles, based on the information your "friend" is giving you. Also, I don't think your "friend" knows what an E11 is capable of doing. I get this from the constant mention of "retarding" your timing. You have a full standalone ECU; retarding the timing is not the correct word to use here. The map is simply built around the characteristics of your engine. i.e.: Timing/Fuel will respond a certain way when vacuum is in the manifold, and then the map points will be different when there is positive pressure in the manifold. It's as simple as that, it's really NOT "retarding" your timing, it's just simply how the map is built for your setup. The MSD/Coil you keep referring to is only going to fire when the Haltech tells it too. Stop worrying about the MSD, retarding timing, and focus on the following to get this car nailed down...

****HOW is the Haltech being triggered; I doubt you have a Z31 dizzy, but rather a Z31 CAS wheel as I have mentioned before

 

Without this, I really can’t give you further advice, and you’re just guessing here. Because, for all I know, they could be using the E11 for fuel only. (Which would be stupid) Also, pull down the base map, and send it to me. I will be able to see what you have going on here.

 

Now, the most important thing here… Take this to get tuned. End of story. Take it to a tuner that knows the E11, and you will be done with it. Trust me, with some of the comments you have stated about “road tuning†this thing, you’re going to end up needing a new engine. I will send you my map, and with the current map you have, it will help the tuner get an idea of where he sits.

 

If you want to go over this in a little more detail, give me a call. Again, I am not trying to be harsh here, but I have seen a few threads you have been posting, and don’t want you to end up with a hole in the side of your block. I know how frustrating this can be, because I see it all the time. Just trying to help you get a car you can “enjoyâ€.

[280zbeeT]

You know I could go through posts Im sure you guys have made spelling errors as well, I am writing on the tiniest lap top with small keys since I dont have good access to a computer right now.. So yes, its a 17lb spring the HALTECH Was tuned to 10lbs, Thats all I know, since I have not ever tuned or hooked the haltech up.. So Im just telling you what I know and has been done to the car from the previous owner.

 

Im parroting sales terms? Uhm Okay, no actually Im trying to learn and see different options and as the topic states get opinions from other people who have run a setups similar to mine? I might not know everything, and I am learning. Ive read and asked and spoken to and with so many people, and truly learned a lot. Sorry Im still learning. I wish more people were humbled down to size

 

Anyways, Im not going to argue with anyone.

 

Ya, I do keep going around in circles Carjway, Im getting some many opinions about ways to go with this car! and this guy I got hooked up with to finish my car with, he really bummed me out when he told me all that stuff about the car and that I need to have the dished pistons cus hes blown many of them, and I did speak with the past owner he said it does have a z31 distributor, and the haltech triggers the spark and the sequential injection as well.. so thats why I dont have a spark to my car because of the timing being off, its not sending a signal to the haltech for spark, thats what he said and thats kind of what I read on google too.

 

Anyways thanks for all this advice, I do appreciate it. I will try to get that base map. I need to finish my timing first and get it running before I go to get the tune.

[woldson]

If you are not going to argue, then delete the argumentative statements you just made. I understand if you don't, some people love to die on mediocre argument.

[280zbeeT]

some people just love to poke and poke.

[woldson]

So you've got it! Good job, it will be great to get back to subject at hand. I was curious about some of the subject matter, just above my practical experience level. Cheers

[Zmanco]

As someone who converted to turbo a year ago, I'll second what a few others have suggested which is to do a lot of reading to get up to speed on how a turbo engine operates. FWIW, I easily spent 40+ hours researching before I bought my first parts....

 

Now for a few things you may not want to read:

Im parroting sales terms?

Let me give you a few examples:

DynoMax 2.5 Welded Exhaust

So is the fact that it's welded a "feature"? Seriously, who cares that it's welded.

 

Dual Electronic Fan from Summit

What other kind of dual fan for a radiator is there?

 

Stainless Steel Lines

Are these brake lines? Perhaps clutch line or fuel line? How is this relevant to tuning the engine? Perhaps you should have told us what color the car is?

 

And as a few others have mentioned, how can you tune to 10 psi boost with a 17 psi spring in the wastegate? The fact that you continue to repeat this nonsense tells us that you really don't understand the basics of how your engine operates.

 

I imagine this is coming across as rather harsh. Yet the fact is that you have a really nice package of parts that many here wish they had. The key now is for you to learn enough so that you can get them all to work together and get the full benefit and keep the engine from self destructing...

 

The one thing he is saying, My 550cc Rx7 injectors are to big, and wrong for the setup, and the GT30r turbo is way to big as well and that is main reason I will detonate with the Flat top pistons.. Even saying my Fel pro Head gasket will Not work and will cause me to blow as well..

FYI, unless I missed it, what cam are you running? With a stock cam I'd probably agree that 550 cc injectors are larger than you need, but not so big that you couldn't still properly tune the engine. If your goals are 400 whp, then they're not too big at all. You could figure this out yourself by googling injector power calculator...

http://www.nitrostre...m/injectors.htm

I calculate the CR at 8.9:1 which is high for a turbo L28, but you could make it work by retarding the timing. Switch to a 2mm gasket and the CR drops to 8.1:1 which is excellent. Again, you could calculate this yourself with LEngine.exe which is available free of charge. If you can't find it, PM me with your email address and I'll send it to you.

 

Hopefully you won't shoot the messenger here and blow up at me - you've got a lot of great parts but it sounds like you're not the type who wants to study up on things - you just want them to work. Perhaps the best thing is to follow carjway's advice and drop the car with someone who knows how to tune it. I'll bet that will save you a ton of heartache as well as money from avoiding breaking something expensive.

[randy 77zt]

most of the parts line-up sounds good.i would wire up some gm lsx coils to the haltech and find a good tuner with a dyno that likes haltech.plus install a 2mm head gaskit.after playing around with another ecm i installed a vipec with gm coils and i am having a pro tune the car after the turbo is rebuilt.tired of playing games with my car

[TimZ]

And as a few others have mentioned, how can you tune to 10 psi boost with a 17 psi spring in the wastegate?

 

Exactly. Three of us have mentioned this so far, and the same answer keeps coming back. That's kind of where the sense of frustration is coming from.

 

I'll put a finer point on it. If the wastegate is set to 17lb, the ECU can't make it do less than 17psi. There are ways for the ECU to "fool" it into producing more boost, but not less. I guess you could do a fuel cut past 10psi, but that would work really badly, to the point of being unusable. So, as Tony alluded to, you need to find out what is meant by "tuned to 10psi". I think what it really means is that you need to sh1tcan the 17lb spring and get a 10lb or lower spring, especially until you have a better handle on what is going on with your config.

 

Also, for a properly setup engine, the GT30R is not too big, and shouldn't "blow" your engine - several people here run GT35Rs, and a couple of us run even larger. The GT30R is capable of a fair amount of boost, though, and I suspect that this guy is more worried about your level of experience and wants to steer you towards something less extreme and potentially more reliable so you don't come back and blame him for an engine that blew up. Don't take offense at this - I'm not saying that's what you would do, but people do crap like that all the time.

[280zbeeT]

thank you randy.

 

That was my parts list of the car, on my notepad, In stead of editing it, since I do not have much time on the computer always I just copy and paste it. I know half that suff has nothing to do with the tune. Im not an idiot.

 

My wastegate has a 17lb spring. I was planning on buying a 10lb spring. then tuning the car.. is that not possible? When I bought the car, the guy said the car is at 10psi and has a 17lb spring for when its ready to be tuned to 20psi like he planned. That is what I am telling you, what I know. As I said, I canot tune a haltech and never have gotten into that area of the car. As you can see I am still learning.

 

And now, I am not like that. Me and mostly by good friend rebuilt the engine. Now I need to do the timing and haltech. Thats all, and Im not worried about him blowing my engine, hes a good friend of my brothers I just havent worked with him on my car before wich is why I mentioned what he said including the GT30r being to big along with the 550cc injectors for a flat top n42 block. wich is why I was curious to ask people who to me are professionals with these cars.

 

 

And ya Zmanco, Im just trying to do this the right way, and so I dont need to keep doing this over an over.. I am running a NA cam, with a regular fel pro head gasket, I wish I used a thicker head gasket.. Its a NA cam with n42 flat top, p90head, with arp hardware.

Edited July 29, 2010 by 280zbeeT

[Tony D]

"Exactly. Three of us have mentioned this so far, and the same answer keeps coming back. That's kind of where the sense of frustration is coming from."

 

As now TimZ mentions, this is what I mean by 'parroting sales terms'---if you're going to choose to get upset, defensive, and argue with people trying to help you you're not going to get anywhere (look at this thread, and it's round in circles 'discussion'.)

 

What I asked about FUEL versus BOOST was NOT clarified. Not until I asked it and you clarified it. Then you got defensive and argumentative.

 

You have to understand that people will ask you questions because something you said is not clear.

 

And IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO CLARIFY IT DON'T SIMPLY REPEAT WHAT YOU SAID PRIOR! (This is what I refer to as 'parroting'---you say "this is all I know")

 

Well, if that is all you know, then you need to learn more in order to answer the question in a constructive manner, and move the process forward. This will take effort on your part. Nobody is trying to psss you off here, they're just trying to get to the root of what you are asking (or what they THINK you are trying to get answered.)

 

In order to do this INFORMATION needs to be exchanged. Not rote recital of a littany of components and sales terms some fed to you when you bought the setup. That only goes so far towards diagnosis or tuning.

 

I think the best suggestion so far has been made by Carjway: Take it to someone familiar with the capabilities of the EMS you are using, and have them tune it on a dyno. If your fuel and spark maps are only tuned to 10psi....it's a disaster waiting to happen.

 

And like several people have mentioned, the confusion in terms was in need of clarification: FUEL AND SPARK have been tuned to 10psi, yet you are running a 17psi spring...I read this thread and see people concerned about the possibility that you will run BOOST to 17psi from what you have said, and the car will not handle it because there is no proper fuel/spark map to that pressure.

 

This is a specific trade, and questions will have to be asked, and clear answers given. If you choose to be offended, then it will go nowhere. If you choose not to learn anything more about your system other than what someone else has told you at time of sale, then it will go nowhere.

 

Being technical, and having experience, I can (as TimZ mentions) usually sense when someone is in over their heads. And in such cases usually steer them towards a more sedate tune to 'protect them from themselves'---unless you have money flowing on an open tap somewhere be open to the possibility that people will detune your expectations based on their sense of your understanding of what is going on within YOUR car. It's in the interest of keeping a car alive or at least not breaking it so severely that someone with limited abilities will give up on it in exasperation.

 

The saddest part of the equation is seeing people new to the hobby saying people with 20+ years of experience who are giving free advice 'need to be humbled down to size'---I might suggest you not hold such a high standard for your own ego, and realize since you don't know this stuff that the people asking the questions might have a reason to do so and you should simply answer them. Repeating the same phrase over and over is not answering them, it's showing them you are unwilling to put forth the effort to truly learn anything new about your setup. There are posts that have said it before: "This will take effort on your part." If people see these efforts, help continues to flow. If they see someone getting all upset and combative... well 'poke poke' it is... But not answering legitimate questions in a detailed manner (or investigating them in order to give that answer) is a bigger 'poke poke', and one which is far more insulting as knowledgable people are taking their time to help you. They don't have to. Argue with them about it, and they won't.

 

Read these as suggestions to be considered, not something to be counterpointed because your ego is fragile. Arguing or being non-responsive to questions stops the process. I don't think that is your aim, I know it's not the aim of anybody posting here thus far. But it WILL be the result eventually.