Sears Craftsman tool buyers be aware!

[bjhines]

I think some of this is driven by the desire to have the "latest" innovations. There is always a new widget or useless add-on do-dad on every common power tool. The models change faster than my underwear. Sources and suppliers don't even bother to keep parts on hand. The parts are priced to completely eliminate any desire to fix the tools. I will only spend money on name brand tools with POWER CORDS ATTACHED, because they do not have a built in self destruct battery life.

 

case in point...

I wear out 2 cordless drills every year. The drills don't break, the batteries just fail to hold a charge. I don't buy batteries because they cost as much as the entire drill kit with charger and 2(two) batteries. I have a dozen NAME BRAND drills in a bucket waiting for robotics experiments when my kid is older. Why the hell would I buy an expensive drill when I KNOW FOR A FACT that the batteries won't last for ANY BRAND. I buy the cheapest junk I can lay hands on and they work just as long as the Dewalt, Makita, Bosche, etc.

 

Back in the 20th century... Sears would source the same Emerson or related brand power woodworking tools for decades before there were any major changes in the lineup. The parts were available "in store" for most of the high wear items. The models were fewer and change was slow, so parts were easier to stock in store.

[Tony D]

On 310z's problem, the quality of the substituted item is not the point. He was presuaded that he was going to get a certain branded item but got something else. If the persuasion amounts to misleading advertising or deception then that is usually contary to the law.

 

Yeah, I would tend to agree that 'bait and switch' is something that can get them nailed. There are usually 'substitution clauses' in most online adverts that make it very hard to pursue that line.

 

But I agree, it's the same as driving in 100 miles to the car dealer for the $6000 Chevette, and them saying "well we don't have any of those available now, how about this Pinto for $7200, it's only a little more but you get so much more car!"

 

Truthfully, you still see the bait and switch car ads, low prices for brand name stuff...all they do now is put in the fine print "one available at this price VIN xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" If you don't see that part, you still drive 100 miles and get the SAME tactic pulled...only now it's totally legal.

 

I'm almost betting this is the case with the wrench in question.

[Tony D]

case in point...

I wear out 2 cordless drills every year. The drills don't break, the batteries just fail to hold a charge. I don't buy batteries because they cost as much as the entire drill kit with charger and 2(two) batteries. I have a dozen NAME BRAND drills in a bucket waiting for robotics experiments when my kid is older. Why the hell would I buy an expensive drill when I KNOW FOR A FACT that the batteries won't last for ANY BRAND. I buy the cheapest junk I can lay hands on and they work just as long as the Dewalt, Makita, Bosche, etc.

 

We're helping everybody here... I have a contractor friend who swore by Dewalt. He still has a lot of their stuff. But when I asked him about buying it for myself (battery powered stuff) he said "To be honest the stuff I buy now is from Harbor Freight" and gave the exact same reason BJ just mentioned. The batteries take a crap, and if you buy IN BULK when they go on deep discount sale---you pick up the 'extended two year replacment warranty' for a discount and usually cheaper than the price of the tool alone. When you end up getting is a free replacement when you wear it out using it daily in construction for a year, and then still likely have coverage on the replacement for that second unit as well!

 

I bought the HF Hammer Drill when I did my driveway... abused the hell out of it. It survived. Now, 4 years later I'm still using it to sink anchors and the occasional stuff around the house. This past summer my kid put the chipping hammer on it and dug an access tunnel under our house through the Decomposed Granite our foundation is put on... Well beyond what it was supposed to be used for...but for what I paid on sale ($37) compared to a lookalike "B" brand at $347... hell, why not!

 

Consider them disposable, and buy for the job. Include the cost of hte tool in the jobs budget and if it survives, you're money ahead! In a lot of cases, buying a HF electric tool is cheaper than even RENTING a brand name for the duration of the project!

[getoffmyinternet]

Owatonna Tool Company (a.k.a. "OTC") is hardly a 'cheap overseas brand'...

 

I was gonna say that, since I have a 20 year old OTC multimeter that has never let me down, but I don't think that's the point. I'm not saying I buy nothing but name brand made in usa stamped tools either but perhaps 310z does, or at least he bought the tool and paid x amount because he was under the impression that it was. False advertising is just that.

 

Although just about every brand name essentially slaps their logo on other companies' products, and I don't blame them. It's up to the smart consumer to find the source (I still haven't figured out what one factory makes every pair of wire twisters I've ever seen). Snap-on has dozens of brands under their wing, usually you discover this when you find that brand at the root and they boast that they are in the Snap-on "family." I know a good tool when I see it, I don't buy brand names. I certainly wouldn't buy air tools from them or matco etc. I don't think I would even buy new tools of the sort. An old dotco or ir scored at the swap meet is what I'm about.

 

 

It's a bit tricky even trying to figure out their warranty on lifetime Craftsman brand tools. Some Craftsman hand tools only come with a one year warranty for instance, no electrical tools are covered and the tools that are branded as "Sears" or "Companion" of course don't have a lifetime warranty. Then they have their newer Evolv line (replaced the Sears line)

 

On a side note, I own two vacuum cleaners from ca. 1950-1960, both all metal and each still works perfectly. Picked them up at thrift stores for next to nothing. I can still buy belts and bags for them at most any well stocked store, including Wal-Mart. Beats the alternative that I've seen time and time again of watching the new plastic vacs die short and sudden deaths.

 

I thought it was in fact only hand tools that had lifetime warranty. Didn't realize that companion or evolv crap were sears brands, they stink! Figures a name brand would unload the cheap stuff under a different name so as to not tarnish themselves (ex. Kobalt). I'll take one of your vacuum cleaners though. Vacuums are the perfect example of a tool that pays to buy the best, because even if you think you're saving a bundle getting the cheap stuff, you'll be back to the store in no time.

 

 

Racist ratings of foundry and metalwork really doesn't accomplish anything. You guys are right up there with such enlightened societies like Saudi-Aramco who puts in 24pt Bold Type on their purchase contracts 'NO CHINESE CONTENT'...

 

That's a pretty wild accusation. This may be a slippery slope but sometimes it's not racist if it's absolutely true. Besides, race has nothing to do with it here. This is a bunch of people agreeing that in their experience products made in china are generally of inferior quality than those made in the usa. A rating of their metallurgy and nothing more. The coast guard ordered a bunch of "stainless steel" from overseas to repair some old boats and less than six months later it's completely rotted, all the while they have some american made stainless with over twenty years in service, now explain to me how saying that the overseas steel was poorly made makes me racist.

[Tony D]

For every 'terrible chinese' story out there, I can give you an equally good story. I deal with suppliers in china, I was at our casting manufacturing facility on the 25th of October as a matter of fact. ASME code is ASME code, certification is certification.

 

MARKETING is what drives 'cheap', and when people want a CHEAP (they will say 'inexpensive') tool, there will be someone there to market it to them.

 

I am in the process of picking up 60X Pocket Loupes with dual light sources, true-white LED and UV LED (for Zyglo Dye Penetrant Inspection)---the units I found at a kiosk in songjiang were asking price $5 each (35 Yuan), bought two and tested them. Quickly ordered more if they could get them. In bulk we are now down to 20 Yuan...just under $3 each. What does something like this MARKET SELL for? Wouldn't have a clue, but likely for a damnsite more than $3, or even 10X that amount. Same goes for our castings. We market the Chinese Castings, but retain our American Suppliers for the 'No Chinese Content' customers. Do they have a justifiable reason? Well maybe... Then again, when they are using Sinopec for the construciton of their facilities you wonder why the anachronistic requirements?

 

There is SHITE OUT THERE FROM ANYBODY! To draw a broad brush across a whole Country of more than a billion people on the account of a handful of 'experiences'.... Yeah, I'd say it's Racist. China is mentioned, not a particular Chinese MANUFACTURER.

 

You are discriminating SOLELY on the basis of national origin with no other discriminatory criteria. Bad apples exist everywhere 'Made in Japan' meant 'cheap junk' when I was born...except for transistor radios and cameras. That list expanded quickly in the coming 10 years. The learning curve for each successive nation industrializing is shorter and shorter. Kia and Korean Cars is a great example. Now the next wave will not be China, it will be India. Stuff coming from there is routinely shite, doesn't meet spec, and in some cases is terribly, shockingly sub-par even when dealing with 'reputable' businesses. But it's sooooooo cheap you can live with it till they get up to speed.

 

My point being, just because it says "America" on it doesn't mean it's the best. And just because it says "China" on it, doesn't mean it's the worst.

 

"India"....I'm keeping my mouth shut and seeing what happens over the next five years. But from the past 10 dealing with the suppliers there the problems aren't getting resolved like they have been in China. And they should have had a much better base to start form if ethnocentric stereotypes are to be believed...

[johnc]

I got my start in this business by doing TIG welding for SP Tools. They supplied Snap-On with all of their specialty automotive hand tools (bearing pullers, special brake tools, belt tensioners, etc.) and I did almost all of their welding - at an effective rate of $20 per hour. 10 hours a day, 6 days a week. If you bought any Snap-On specialty automotive tool from 2001 through 2003 I welded it.

 

I knew the owners of SP Tools personally for years before that and had raced with and against them at tracks all over the west coast. Mark and Paul are great people and are very proud of their business and this country. Starting in 2003 they kept getting price pressure from Snap-on due to lower cost import products being sold by Miller Tools and others. In the professional tool market, mechanics are like any other consumer - they shop price first and Snap-On was getting killed in the market.

 

Eventually, even at $20 per hour, I was too expensive and SP Tools had to start outsourcing production overseas and stopped sending business my way. No one at Snap-On, SP Tools, or BetaMotorsports wanted to do this. It was driven completely by the consumer - the professional mechanic.

 

The quality of the tools SP Tools gets from overseas are pretty much equal to what they were producing here. They carry the same warranty and warranty costs are equal or less then they were when the parts were made here. This is neither a good or bad thing, its just the way things are. I moved on and focused on motorsports fabrication (which is what I wanted to do anyway). Adapt or die as the saying goes.

[Tony D]

"This is neither a good or bad thing, its just the way things are. "

 

Yep! The customer drive the market, then the customer complains about the market he gets!

[getoffmyinternet]

I'm discriminating based solely on EVERY EXPERIENCE I'VE EVER HAD. If you have a chinese brand that makes high quality tools at a competitive price then great, I'd like to hear of it. Refusing to buy from a country might be racist, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I have yet to see a tool from a chinese company that meets my standard of quality. Some of the usa companies that outsource to china still keep their standards, so the tools are still made better and are still a little more expensive, but cheaper than usa made tools. That versus a company based in china where the one and only requirement is low price, of course they're going to cut every corner--and they don't care about tarnishing their brand name because either they don't have one or it's meaningless anyway (or apparently they slap a craftsman logo on it).

[Tony D]

"I'm saying I have yet to see a tool from a chinese company that meets my standard of quality. Some of the usa companies that outsource to china..."

 

Stop it right there... You may NEVER KNOW the manufacturing origin, yet are stating none you have handled yet has met your standards. But somehow if the Chinese Tool sports a US Maker on it that doesn't qualify as a Chinese Tool anymore.

 

Sahib has blessed the production! how wonderful.

 

"Refusing to buy from a country might be racist, but that's not what I'm saying."

 

"Might Be?" It is, and inferring that everything produced there (even though you have not tried everything produced there, you have based it only on limited exposure) is EQUALLY racist! This can digress into sterotypes used in the 30's in a wonderfully amusing Hitler reference to follow the Internet Guidelines an an analogy...but I won't go there...

 

You won't see the forest through the trees on this one, I'm not going to try. I stand by my statement.

 

And as a producer of product sourced in China for competitive realities, I know damn well there is plenty of competition out there who has no 'White Man's Oversight to Correct their Inherent Asian Inferiority" that are PLENTY competitive with QUALITY product coming from China.

 

In many cases, country of origin is obscured pretty well. You are satisifed with Chinese Products (and yes, even tools) every day of the week, you just likely have no clue you are using them. As in John C's example above.

Edited November 5, 2010 by Tony D

[getoffmyinternet]

"I'm saying I have yet to see a tool from a chinese company that meets my standard of quality. Some of the usa companies that outsource to china..."

 

Stop it right there... You may NEVER KNOW the manufacturing origin, yet are stating none you have handled yet has met your standards. But somehow if the Chinese Tool sports a US Maker on it that doesn't qualify as a Chinese Tool anymore.

 

 

No one on earth will ever have tested literally every piece of evidence to make any conclusions on any topic whatsoever. We work with what little experience we have, how is that so difficult to understand? If you can't draw any conclusions unless 100% of the data falls in line then you'll never be able to make heads or tails of anything. The fda wouldn't have ever approved of a single drug, that's for sure. Is putting tylenol on the market saying that it is 100% safe to use? No, it's saying that the odds are in your favor enough to not be too concerned, that's it.

 

I didn't say a usa company tool is not a chinese tool anymore, I said that because the company is in the usa it holds the china factory to usa standards and therefore the chinese tool is made in usa quality. Certainly china is not incapable of making the same quality products we do, it's just that the majority of them choose not to because they can make an insane amount of a cheap product, sell it cheap, and rake in the dough on volume. Obviously there are cheap usa companies too as there are a few exceptions to every rule, and if I knew a crappy usa tool company I wouldn't buy from them either! I'm still waiting for you to give me some chinese high quality brand names that I can start buying tools from by the way.

 

 

"Refusing to buy from a country might be racist, but that's not what I'm saying."

 

"Might Be?" It is, and inferring that everything produced there (even though you have not tried everything produced there, you have based it only on limited exposure) is EQUALLY racist! This can digress into sterotypes used in the 30's in a wonderfully amusing Hitler reference to follow the Internet Guidelines an an analogy...but I won't go there...

 

 

I'm sure there are a variety of reasons not to buy a product from someone besides racism, which you insist on assuming about china. A country is not a race. If I refused to buy from germany for any reason would you bat an eye? Probably not, because like me most germans are white, which apparently is a race these days. So I guess the only people I'm allowed to not buy from are other people that are the same color as me, otherwise it wouldn't be politically correct.

 

"White Man's Oversight to Correct their Inherent Asian Inferiority"

 

Where the hell did that quote even come from??

[Tony D]

"I said that because the company is in the usa it holds the china factory to usa standards and therefore the chinese tool is made in usa quality."

 

You are making the ASSUMPTION that 'USA standards' are somehow inherently HIGHER AND SUPERIOR than Chiinese Standards. You then REINFORCE this with the follow up statement that there 'may' be cheap US companies, and a backhand comment that Chinese companies MAY have quality on their own.

 

China is not a Race, but Chinese is, and who populates China? Chinese? Be they Han, or any ethnic subdivision, they are lumped together as an ethnic subgroup differentiated from the children of the sun, the Japanese...another place where 'cheap' once was the stereotype and to this day racist stereotypes still exist (you hear it all the time in the midwest: "Cheap Jap Crap")

 

By simple substitution, "Cheap Chinese Crap" is similar, if not exactly the same...

 

The presence of a USA brand name on a chinese produced tool as john c stated above means nothing of substance, not better, not worse, just reality. There is no inherent superiority of standards just because it's 'specified' by some guy in america.

 

That is the undercurrent of your post. You just don't see it. It's there. Same as it was in 1984 when the UAW would buy a Corolla, and the local members would buy a whack with a baseball bat for $20 to 'Whack The Jap Crap"...arguably a superior product for it's intended market (one which Detroit did not even supply product for) but because it was from Japan....it was bad! All the windows on the Isuzu P'ups at the Isuzu dealer would be shot out over memorial day...the Chevy LUV's on the lot across the street were untouched. SAME TRUCK! SAME PLANT.

 

Same mentality, different product.

 

Didn't understand it then, don't understand it now.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Tony D

[Tony D]

.

Edited November 6, 2010 by Tony D

[getoffmyinternet]

So when I say OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE and it's about america, you twist my words into being well maybe it's possible. You sure quote me on saying may a lot considering it is absent from my post. Then put in quotes something you call the undercurrent of what I said to make me sound like what you assume me to be. Then you pin the acts of others on me and imply that we are in the same category for some reason.

 

Perhaps I should quote myself.

 

"I'm still waiting for you to give me some chinese high quality brand names that I can start buying tools from by the way."

 

This was not a trick question, I didn't intend for it to be so hard to answer. I assume there are high quality brands from china, and since you are so internationally aware perhaps you can enlighten me. Why you keep dodging the question and all the while say I'm refusing to consider a chinese brand is beyond me.

[Tony D]

"I'm still waiting for you to give me some chinese high quality brand names that I can start buying tools from by the way."

 

 

King Tony

[cygnusx1]

Water seeks its own level, so does quality, money, jobs...it's just how it works.  The largest problem with Chinese substitution of USA goods, is that in the past, many US based manufacturers had failed to set  up, and maintain proper overseas QA departments.  Engineering, materials, physics... all apply in China as well as anywhere else I can reach by ship.  It is the sellers responsibility to make sure the claimed standards are met, regardless of cost, or place of manufacture.  False claims and "shady marketing" should be nipped in the bud.

[bjhines]

CygnusX1, I totally agree.

 

We had this issue with food as well. All manufacturers must continue to use their own QA testing to ensure the quality of products they sell. The American companies that have had problems dropped the ball, not China in general.

 

Lenovo made IBM computers for over a decade before they split and became a brand name here in the USA. Thinkpads and other Lenovo products are the VERY BEST in their market. This is a TOP QUALITY Chinese product, in fact they make the very best available ANYWHERE!

Edited November 8, 2010 by bjhines

[johnc]

I think all the can be said, has been said.