ozconnection Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 Top Gear mentioned something about this with Formula one and Group A racers. The tolerances are so tight with these things that you can't even turn it over unless preheated oil and water are circulated through the engine first. I'm close to start up on my L28. Since warmup is where most normal wear takes place and is most severe with a fresh (and cold) engine, would it make any sense to heat the water and oil before firing it up? I do understand that part of the run in process includes a degree of wear but would it be 'better' to do it to an engine that is 'pre heated' and closer to actual operating conditions? I have visions of large aluminium pots of oil and coolant heating up on my BBQ hotplate and grill......and my laser thermo thingy keeping tabs on preceedings Is there a better way? Thanks for your thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 (edited) They make self-regulating heaters you stick on the oil pan to preheat the oil, by proxy, if you leave them operating in a still air environment (the shed) they will do a nice job of preheating the block and water in there as well...in conjunction with a block water heater you can have an engine close to operating temperature almost immediately. Can't hurt... What I like about it was that my 7.4L Chevy didn't run in cold start mode AT ALL and my fuel mileage went up considerably because of that! ESPECIALLY during the colder winter months. For something that is driven short distances with EFI, it can make an impact not running rich for 3 minute shot to the tobacconist or OTB Parlor on a cold Sunday morning... We run the pan heater on the Bonneville car (summitt.com) to keep the big sump oil pan heated. We then run the car briefly to heat up the coolant before going into the staging lanes and to check for leaks. Firing it off with warm oil seems to make for a much quicker warmup---as I said I think it' heating the block water as well! Makes for an easier start on EFI when doing initial tuning with cold start and all the enrichments are turned off as well! oil pan heater testimonials coolant heater link From the site: "Built-in thermostat prevents overheating and burnout. Keeps engine warm by circulating warm engine coolant through entire engine. Quicker heater and defroster output. Connects to 5/8" heater hose-;operates on regular AC house current. 120 volt. With 1-ft. grounded cord and instructions. 750-Watt. Warms 4-cylinder engines in 2-3 hours, 6-cylinder engines overnight. 1,000-Watt. Warms 6-cylinder engines in 2-3 hours, 8-cylinder engines overnight. CAVEAT: A block heater DOES NOT NECESSARILY HEAT THE OIL! I prefer and recommend the oil pan heater for people who are only going to put ONE heater on---it's FAR more important to have warm oil, that warm coolant. Sure, if it's -40 the block heater will give you heat in the car immediately, but your oil is like -20 and trying to pump to the top end of the engine on startup! Oil heater will as stated, also help heat the block, but not vice-versa! 1,500-Watt. Warms 8-cylinder engines in 2-3 hours. " Edited November 14, 2010 by Tony D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getoffmyinternet Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I bet the only reason they do it is because of the tolerances. If you don't have to, why bother? Unless it's a cold weather situation. It's like you said, you want it to wear at first, I don't know if there's really a wrong way to do it. In an airplane you would purposely use straight mineral oil for the first 500 hours because you want particulates to be held in suspension and grind away at the cylinders/rings, then you switch to the good stuff. They also have oil heaters, I don't know if a block heater would be ideal. It seems like if you had the engine at running temp with cold oil you could be shock cooling and possibly damage the engine like if you were to pour cold water into your radiator after it overheated. I haven't experienced it first hand though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I'm running that same unit on my car. Although I daily drive my car it's mostly short hops so I use it to warm up the car before I drive it. It's on a timer for the morning and then I keep it plugged in when I'm at the shop. It gets everything warm including the oil. The valve cover is hot to the touch. It's also nice for setting the valves as it keeps the engine at operating temps longer. If you want I can get you a temp tomorrow when it's plugged in. Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snailed Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I would be far more worried about oil presssure on a fresh startup than temp on an engine like yours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 In an airplane you would purposely use straight mineral oil for the first 500 hours because you want particulates to be held in suspension and grind away at the cylinders/rings, then you switch to the good stuff. They also have oil heaters, I don't know if a block heater would be ideal. Uuuuuuh, no. Using ND30 or whatever DOES NOT hold the particulates in suspension to 'grind away at the cylinders/rings' it lets the particulates FROM initial wear between the cylinders/rings FALL OUT of suspension and go to the bottom of the crankcase or into the oil tank where they will be cleaned out before switching to a Detergent-Type oil which DOES hold particulates in suspension---small microscopic things like blowby carbon and etc... this keeps them from being deposited long-term over the internals in what is termed 'sludge'... I'd take issue with ND being in there for 500 hours as well, as that is a major inspection interval...my recollection was 5 or 25 hours or something along that line, but not till the first inspection interval! The reason they have oil heaters (similar to what I posted) is to keep the oil at working viscosity so it does it's job properly right out the shoot. Start and engine at -20 and put a load on it before it's at operating temperature and you will learn what they mean by 'bearing frosting'... Higher Speed Engines (turbines) must have this preheater or do an extended 'slow roll' to get parts up to speed without load till the oil is warmed to keep from frosting the bearings as well. Having things at 'operating' temperature is a good thing, if tolerances are tight, you will know it instead of 5 minutes into an idling session. Which brings us to specific cam break-in conditions...I hate starting an engine and running to 2000rpms immediately and then breaking in the cam when the engine is stone cold. I have ALWAYS felt more comfortable having the fluids preheated with the above devices when I have a cam that calls for a 'hot' tempering requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 14, 2010 Share Posted November 14, 2010 I'm running that same unit on my car. Although I daily drive my car it's mostly short hops so I use it to warm up the car before I drive it. It's on a timer for the morning and then I keep it plugged in when I'm at the shop. It gets everything warm including the oil. The valve cover is hot to the touch. It's also nice for setting the valves as it keeps the engine at operating temps longer. If you want I can get you a temp tomorrow when it's plugged in. Derek Apparently Great Minds Think Alike! Like I said, the block heater won't 'necessarily' warm the oil. At least it didn't on the BBC 454! The little flat oil heater though did. They are wired together in a junction box, and the plug is hard-attached in the grille like the factory Arctic Package...just plug in my extension cord with no worries of torrential rains as it's recessed behind the grille and hood drip line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozconnection Posted November 14, 2010 Author Share Posted November 14, 2010 I'm running that same unit on my car. Although I daily drive my car it's mostly short hops so I use it to warm up the car before I drive it. It's on a timer for the morning and then I keep it plugged in when I'm at the shop. It gets everything warm including the oil. The valve cover is hot to the touch. It's also nice for setting the valves as it keeps the engine at operating temps longer. If you want I can get you a temp tomorrow when it's plugged in. Derek Yeah, that would be great! Thanks Derek Thanks for everyone's responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
getoffmyinternet Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Uuuuuuh, no. Using ND30 or whatever DOES NOT hold the particulates in suspension to 'grind away at the cylinders/rings' it lets the particulates FROM initial wear between the cylinders/rings FALL OUT of suspension and go to the bottom of the crankcase or into the oil tank where they will be cleaned out before switching to a Detergent-Type oil which DOES hold particulates in suspension---small microscopic things like blowby carbon and etc... this keeps them from being deposited long-term over the internals in what is termed 'sludge'... I'd take issue with ND being in there for 500 hours as well, as that is a major inspection interval...my recollection was 5 or 25 hours or something along that line, but not till the first inspection interval! My apologies, I meant that the break in period is 500 hours, but mineral oil is used for up to the first 50 depending on the engine and oil consumption. Going straight to AD would greatly increase the break in time though, which is by far the most unsafe time to be flying. And yes, I assure you that straight mineral oil will not carry away the particulates nor will it break up deposits, that's why we have so many additives in our high performance oils, if the crude stuff did the job so well, we would just use that all the time! And you better believe that mineral oil will oxidize and sludge readily. Ashless Dispersant is so named for a reason. It's not the same as a detergent oil which can form deposits, and it does keep sludge from forming, but it is specifically designed to carry any deposits back to the filter! Turbines are a completely different animal altogether because of the extreme demands of the oil including temperature and pressure. All turbine oils are very low viscosity synthetics. I'm not familiar with preheaters or 'slow-rolls' on turbines however. If you live in the arctic and you don't park your car inside your igloo, get an oil dilution system. If not, you shouldn't have a problem so long as you use the proper oil grade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Any bloc heater would work to warm the water and an oil heater like shown above would be great some bloc heater warms the water so much that the engine is hot to the touch . Thats what i have on my truck for our cold northen Canadian winters . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Prelube for sure... I don't have to worry about extreme cold here. I have a little story on pre-oiling. I put 2 extra quarts in the sump before the first start on my SBC. I used a pump drive tool to spin the pump with a hand drill. The fact the I have a 3qt accusump, large oil cooler, thermo bypass, remote filter(large capacity), and a lot of -10 hose... means that my sump went dry while pre-oiling. I added several more quarts to bring the level back up. After starting and cycling through the accusump a few times, I needed to add even more oil. I am glad I did not run it before prelubing/prefilling the entire system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Porsche now does NOT put in 'break in oil' -- they start straight with Mobil 1 Synthetic, and advise customers that they will 'consume' oil and it's normal. This goes back to my engineering analysis of costs of wear versus costs of oil. You can buy a LOT of oil for the cost of an engine overhaul. If the rings are seated, even with Synthetic (you CAN do that with proper metallurgy or bore finish!) then sure, you don't have a 'perfect' seal, but your engine keeps on sealing progressively over a longer period of time. BMW's are known to seal better and make their most power after 30K miles! The old paradigm of 'scrape and seat' really is starting to be rethought, because the engines CAN last FAR longer if they don't undergo a lot of torturous break-in and simply let stuff slip and slide and seat gradually over tens of thousands of miles instead of a couple hundred. The 'loss' over the first 30K miles from 'marginally seating' pistons and rings is likely far less than thought previously (especially with modern machining techniques), and the cost of the increased wear rate simply isn't seen as paying off now. Effect: Engines that last even longer, and which move all normal maintenance intervals back another 30 or 50K miles! Much of this is driven by emissions requirements which are calling for a sealed engine for all practical intent, and something that lasts for 10 years 100K miles without requiring any maintenance. Not necessarily a bad thing... No stuff in the oil any more to poison the catalyst, so why not let it pump a bit of oil? Won't hurt the catalyst---whereas it would before. Pump a little more oil, use 30 quarts more in 30K miles, for what $90 cost, or even $180 cost...at the payback of having 30 to 50K more useable miles on the end of the engine's lifetime because of decreased ring and liner wear? Someone is in a back room crunching numbers, and it's going to intimidate a lot of people with entrenched paradigms in their mind about 'proper maintenance procedures'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Posted November 15, 2010 Share Posted November 15, 2010 Here are some numbers for you. The car has been plugged in for 4 hours so this is as good as it gets for this ambient. Ambient temperature 70 deg F Water temp according to Megasquirt 162F Oil temp measured with Fluke meter with thermo couple in dipstick hole. 100F Valve cover temp measured with infrared 105F I didn't plug it in last night and when I went to start it at 45 deg F it turned over noticeably slower. It also didn't get to operating temp until I was about a 1/4 mile from the shop which is why I did this mod in the first place Derek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted November 16, 2010 Share Posted November 16, 2010 Yeah, oil operational temperature is 180 degrees, I would not consider that block heater to have warmed the oil to operating temperature...better than ambient, but not by much! Usually with the convection water heaters, they will heat the radiator as well. In a cool, closed shed, the block heater will warm the shed noticably when you compare it to the outside ambient if it's been operating long enough! (I use a 1500Watt electric heater to keep 1200 gallons of water from freezing in the Michigan winters in a -20 environment, and it hasn't let me down in four years running!) With the stick-on heater the oil will be near 180, but the water in the radiator much less than 160. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozconnection Posted November 17, 2010 Author Share Posted November 17, 2010 Here are some numbers for you. The car has been plugged in for 4 hours so this is as good as it gets for this ambient. Ambient temperature 70 deg F Water temp according to Megasquirt 162F Oil temp measured with Fluke meter with thermo couple in dipstick hole. 100F Valve cover temp measured with infrared 105F I didn't plug it in last night and when I went to start it at 45 deg F it turned over noticeably slower. It also didn't get to operating temp until I was about a 1/4 mile from the shop which is why I did this mod in the first place Derek Thanks heaps for that Derek. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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