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Will a Z with an LS Engine turn?


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#21 Mikelly

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 04:42 AM

Yes, we can actually start another thread and maybe move some of the text from here... However, I'd like to suggest also that we maybe start planning now and schedule a weekend around NEXT YEARs Triangle Zcar Club/ THSCC event at VIR to maybe get John out on a trip east for the HPDE weekend. I'm sure between us, we could get his ticket paid for and get him put up somewhere local to the track for the weekend... That is if John is interested, of course.

There are a number of guys on the east coast who are driving their V8 built track Zcars successfully on large road courses. I think it is important to show the potential of these cars. John brings a lot to the table when it comes to the total package, so it would be of huge value to have him come out.

Mike

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#22 mark

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 04:47 AM

maybe get John out on a trip east for the HPDE weekend. I'm sure between us, we could get his ticket paid for and get him put up somewhere local to the track for the weekend... That is if John is interested, of course.

Mike



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#23 jt1

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:30 AM

Great idea, I'll chip in.

jt
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#24 Guest_speedmon_*

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 10:09 PM

Thanks for the input!
Assuming I am not losing any weight advantage and only gaining a huge HP/TQ advantage (and more upward potential) I would need to define the parts needed for a minimum conversion to get the car mechanically operational.
From this thread and other I've been able to piece together this list. It does not assume getting all the gauges operational, not yet anyway.

If this list exists already I apologize, but please point me to it.


Parts from Donor:

LS1 Donor: 2000+ Camaro to include:

engine, (definitely upgrade the heads and cam while engine is out)

T-56 transmission,

PCM with harness (or ECU),

Air Intake assembly (an easy fab, but need MAF)

?Do we use the camaro clutch assembly?
?What else should be scavenged from the donor...maybe the gauges?


Parts needed to buy (and I’d rather buy than fabricate):

John’s car mounts (where do these come from?)

JTR Headers (has anybody tried the stock Z06 manifolds)

Engine crossmember?

Transmission crossmember?

Fuel pump & lines (Do we need a pressure regulator?)

Fuel tank (I have a fuel cell, but does the stock tank need to be replaced?)

Radiator (anything special?)

?What else?



Parts need fabricate (this is the list that will drive me crazy):

Drive shaft (from T56 to rear end of choice)

Exhaust system (no biggie)

Brakelines (do they need to be re-routed?, someone said that)

Sub-frame connectors (can these be bought?)

?What else?



I know the PCM will need to be re-flashed for tuning and turning many sensors off, but that is part of tuning process, after all the mechanicals are in place.





#25 Mikelly

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 03:51 AM

YOu'd want the clutch assembly as well as the flywheel and the clutch hydraulics, although you won't use them, get them anyway to make sure you get it all. Your best bet is to find a 2002 model Car. They make Crazy power bonestock. We're talking well over 310 at the wheels (little brother made 319/333 to the wheels last weekend on his otherwise stock setup) with factory cast steel manifolds. Go ahead and get the drive shaft with it and use the front yoke from that.

You'll also want to grab the gastank if possible. Others here can give you a MUCH more detailed list of parts, but the Johns cars mount kit and the JTR headers would be on my list.

Mike :cool:

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#26 Pop N Wood

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 03:52 AM

Hah! I was writting such a list just yesterday.

John's cars is at http://www.brokenkitty.com/. Start reading there on what is required.

Your second stop is Jaguars that Run, http://www.jagsthatrun.com/. Buy the swap manual from them. Not LS1 specific, but you will save a public "SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH" flaming if you ask questions you could have answered with the manual. Lots of invaluable info in that book. The brake line question is covered in there.

Radiator you can get from JTR, or you can recore the stock radiator to a 3 or 4 row core and use that. Get the drive shaft from the donor car, and consider getting the Camaro fans too. You will need to figure out what you want to do with engine accesories (PS, AC) and how to delete what you don't want. Anyone know how to rig up just an alternator?

Some of the other big ticket items will be the instrumentation (need to do something about the speedo and maybe tach). And you are also going to want a service manual for the engine, plus the $500 for tuning software if you plan any do it yourself.

One last thing. The stock LS1-2 heads flow really well. Car mags build 500+ HP dyno engines with little more than a cam and valve spring upgrade. Don't know that new heads are such a "must have" upgrade.

#27 Mikelly

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 04:21 AM

Pop, If you buy an older model LS1 fromt he 97-2000 range (especially the 97-98 heads) you'll be down on power. We found this out the hard way with my new heads that were new 98 model cores. They simply don't flow nearly as well as they should, and don't make the power I should be making with my combo.

If I was to do it over, I'd copy the MTI 402 stroker setup with the LS2 shortblock and a set of LS6 lightly ported heads, or the new Dart heads, which are on my short list.

Mike

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#28 BringIt

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 04:57 AM

so you are saying even after CNC porting ( You say you used 98 cores ) they still couldn't flow enough?

Also 5.3 and 6.0 heads are the same base casting of the ls6 heads with different size combustion chambers.

How are the ports that much off between a 98/01 head?

Andy

#29 Mikelly

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 05:28 AM

We took brand new out of the box LS1 heads that were the fisrt generation LS1 head and had them ported, and 2.02/ 1.57 valves put in. However, I didn't know the numbers on the heads at the time, and didn't realize that the LS6 head came with soooo many improvements that even though my heads are worked on, the STOCK LS6 heads are probably an improvement.

On the LS series heads, Port Velocity is Critical. If you open the heads up to much, you kill the port velocity. We think that is the problem. My heads were opened up a fair amount. It's been documented over on LS1tech.com and Corvetteforum.com that the exact combo I built (but using different heads) should be well over 400WHP. Mine isn't and the only thing I've done differently than others is use those early LS1 heads, which have been documented to not flow as much as the newer LS6/ LS2 heads. All that said, I'm still making 386WHP and 382#ft. torque. However, I'd like to be in the 420WHP range like all the others running THAT combo (minus the Early LS1 head).

Supposedly a blower cam and a supercharger will benefit from these heads, so when I take them off, they'll sell quickly, but who knows... I'm looking at the new Dart heads right now, But a set of worked LS6 heads would easily get me where I want to be with HP numbers.

Mike

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#30 BringIt

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 07:52 AM

Maybe you need a cam change ive seen 400-420 whp with a cam only car. Is that too much cam than you are wanting or ?

Andy

#31 Mikelly

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Posted 19 January 2006 - 08:42 AM

It depends. I'm running the TR 224/224 114LSA cam in the Vette and I need to make sure the car will pass smog emissions testing in Virginia.

I've seen some LS1 Fbody cars do bolt ons and a cam and hit right at 400HP and that is with the same TR224 cam kit above and some stock LS6 heads with minor cleanup.

The earliest LS1 heads (Last three numbers are 853 on the casting) are the heads I'd stay away from now that I'm more educated on the subject... Guess what number is on the casting of my heads? :roll:

Yup, Suxs to be me! :lmao:

Mike :cool:

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#32 Mikelly

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Posted 20 January 2006 - 04:32 AM

This one has been made a sticky at the request of a few...

There's been a lot of speculation and debate about the V8 swap being a good candidate for track day duty on road courses. There is significant relevance in this thread to that arguement, so it's sticky-Worthy!

Good track times for CMP and VIR! I encourage all to post their lap times for road courses around the country!

Mike

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#33 Moridin

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 11:44 PM

It depends. I'm running the TR 224/224 114LSA cam in the Vette and I need to make sure the car will pass smog emissions testing in Virginia.

I've seen some LS1 Fbody cars do bolt ons and a cam and hit right at 400HP and that is with the same TR224 cam kit above and some stock LS6 heads with minor cleanup.

The earliest LS1 heads (Last three numbers are 853 on the casting) are the heads I'd stay away from now that I'm more educated on the subject... Guess what number is on the casting of my heads? :roll:

Yup, Suxs to be me! :lmao:

Mike :cool:


I'm ecountering a big learning curve with the LSx motors, but what about a set of ETP heads? They are supposed to be the new big thing from what I've heard. Do the C5R style castings bolt up? What about AFRs?
If only anything I actually owned worked.

#34 Mikelly

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 01:48 AM

C5R castings won't bolt up and are stupid expensive. The AFRs are, well AFRs and do well, but at a serious cost.

Couple of guys over on LS1Tech and CorvetteForum recently reported LOW numbers using Patriot stage 1 and stage2 heads. Some guys have had GREAT results with those heads. What that tells me is that they don't have their porting process nailed down such that it is measurable and repeatable. Not a good thing to have with such a product.

The latest kid on the block is the new DART LS1 head. It is getting good reviews and is almost HALF the price of AFRs. However, I'll be searching for either bare 243 casting LS6 heads to send to North Carolina with my car, or a set of heads from one of the members on the boards mentioned above with PROVEN power numbers.

Jeff Creech posted within a week of my last Dyno tune down in Durham that he had tuned a 2004 GTO with the SAME cam, some headers, a catback, and no other changes (Guy has the LS6 heads on it I believe, or the LS2 heads, whatever came in the 2004 GTO) and the car hit 420 on the dyno with a safe and solid tune. Same exact cam. Same intake. Same injectors. Worse flowing headers/ exhaust and a smaller throttlebody. He's making 34HP and about 20# ft. more than me... It has to be the heads.

Mike

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#35 Moridin

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 02:43 PM

C5R castings won't bolt up and are stupid expensive. The AFRs are, well AFRs and do well, but at a serious cost.

Couple of guys over on LS1Tech and CorvetteForum recently reported LOW numbers using Patriot stage 1 and stage2 heads. Some guys have had GREAT results with those heads. What that tells me is that they don't have their porting process nailed down such that it is measurable and repeatable. Not a good thing to have with such a product.

The latest kid on the block is the new DART LS1 head. It is getting good reviews and is almost HALF the price of AFRs. However, I'll be searching for either bare 243 casting LS6 heads to send to North Carolina with my car, or a set of heads from one of the members on the boards mentioned above with PROVEN power numbers.

Jeff Creech posted within a week of my last Dyno tune down in Durham that he had tuned a 2004 GTO with the SAME cam, some headers, a catback, and no other changes (Guy has the LS6 heads on it I believe, or the LS2 heads, whatever came in the 2004 GTO) and the car hit 420 on the dyno with a safe and solid tune. Same exact cam. Same intake. Same injectors. Worse flowing headers/ exhaust and a smaller throttlebody. He's making 34HP and about 20# ft. more than me... It has to be the heads.

Mike


I was talking about the ET performance heads, not the Patriot performance ones.
If only anything I actually owned worked.

#36 katman

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 06:49 PM

Hard to believe that ITS track record still stands, old pavement or not. We called that driver "Coasting Kollar"- because that's how he went through turn 1 at Road Atlanta. That E36 Bimmer was all motor, no handling, and no driving. Speaking of driving, I was always a big fan of learning how to road race in a car with no horsepower first, like an ITS 240Z. I have no doubt that an experienced ITS pilot would obliterate the ITS track records with an LS1 Z on the same tires and a decent suspension. My observation whilst instructing drivers that learn a big hp car first is that they haven't learned how to conserve momentum into and through a turn. They stomp on the brakes until they're way too slow, jerk the wheel, and stomp on the gas after it's straight. Very hard to get them to be smooth and expand the traction circle on entry and mid corner when they got that big joy pedal. Boy would I love to put an LS1 in an old GT2 Z!

#37 Mikelly

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 05:01 AM

Moriden, I know you was asking about the ETP head. My point in mentioning the Patriot heads is to illustrait the problems some of the LSx head providers are having in providing a reliable, repeatable performance head for the LSx platform.

Katman, You'r correct. We see it all the time at the track... Some guy in a Viper, Vette, or other big stick car... They're getting lapped by guys in e36 BMWs all day long. They aren't smooth, don't carry enough momentum, aren't smooth, and haven't gotten the technique down. Big HP only masks the mistakes of bad drivers until they have a BAD accident. :shock:

Mike :cool:

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#38 BringIt

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 02:12 PM

Moriden, I know you was asking about the ETP head. My point in mentioning the Patriot heads is to illustrait the problems some of the LSx head providers are having in providing a reliable, repeatable performance head for the LSx platform.

Katman, You'r correct. We see it all the time at the track... Some guy in a Viper, Vette, or other big stick car... They're getting lapped by guys in e36 BMWs all day long. They aren't smooth, don't carry enough momentum, aren't smooth, and haven't gotten the technique down. Big HP only masks the mistakes of bad drivers until they have a BAD accident. :shock:

Mike :cool:


CNC Programs have alot of room for error ?

#39 Mikelly

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 04:51 AM

Apparently they do. I thought it was pretty much plug and play, but what I was told is that the heads have some slop in them from GM and that causes these anomolies in head performance.

I've talked to several tuners and they've ALL mentioned the issues with the Patriot brand heads. Maybe it's just something going on with their facility, maybe it isn't... I can't personally tell you why that is. Maybe it is a faulty CNC machine, maybe it's something else... Don't know.

I figure it's very good information to make others aware of before they spend their money... I personally HAD a set of heads on order from Patriot and cancelled the order on the advice of three different tuners.
Mike

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#40 LS2 V8 Miata

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Posted 16 July 2006 - 12:55 PM

My son-in-law (Howard Performance) is a custom GM LS Gen III & IV performance engine packager in Arizona, with 600-700 HP NA motors, turbos, blown & nitrous applications being fairly common. Various cubic inch. stroke, LS7 heads, etc.

No problems encountered with any heads (he doesn't use Patriot) nor any other problems with other components (cams, springs, rods, etc.) I've ever heard of, it's news to me.(many guys don't know you have to throw away your old head bolts and use new ones every time with LS V8s, also there are 3 tier head torque specs everybody seems to ignore)

My own custom built LS2 is fine too.

Point of reference, at our Pro Autosports events I've seen an accomplished driver, Bill in his "street driven" V8 Miata (about 400 RWHP) spank a Viper GTS on race compounds (Bill's Miata on Kuhmos), a Ferrari 360 Modena and a lot of BMWs and Porsches. (his particular motor is a stroker Ford V8 by the way) Logically, if Bill's Ford V8 Miata which is heavier than my LS2 V8 Miata turns (road course performance) fine, why wouldn't an LS V8 also work great in a Z-car if guys are making Fords perform well in Z-cars? too?

In my experiences you're much more likely to experience LS V8 problems with the range of fools that sell their own "Custom" wiring harnesses and "Reprogrammed OEM PCMs" or "Custom Dyno tuned" Delphi MEFI IV set-ups with "trust me" software integrations, also amatuer attempts at "speed density" mods pointed to eliminate using a MAF sensor.

Momentary lapse of reason can = BOOM!!! (with any motor)

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